Friday, October 3, 2008

Greeks

Are the Greeks "still" Indo-European? Were they ever?

Modern Greeks do not descend predominantly from Indo-Europeans. It is silly to talk about whether or not the Greeks are "any longer" Indo-European, since the people living within the geographic boundaries of Greece were at no time predominantly Indo-European by ancestry. However, the aristocracy of classical Greece would indeed have derived from Indo-Europeans. John V. Day notes that:

Indo-Europeans often seem to have been small minorities in the countries they penetrated: the Celtic warrior-class in Ireland; the Roman patricians; the few Homeric heroes and the so-called "pure Greeks" of later years; and the Aryans battling against the many natives in India.

According to Peterson, the Greek aristocracy were seperated by "caste-like stratification . . . from the freemen and slave classes among whom the genetic influence of the autochthonous 'Pelasgian' population may have predominated" (Peterson 1974).

Also keep in mind, Greeks have 28% Near Eastern HG9 and 28% North African HG21. Much of this ancestry may date from the Neolithic, but it is curious that RM doesn't interpret this data to mean Greeks are 56% "Hamito-Semitic" and therefore very much less than "pure" European. As Day (2002) says: "Genetically, Greek and Yugoslav populations are among the least typically 'European.'"

Update: In fact, new research is suggesting that much of the "Neolithic" ancestry in Greece represents gene flow from after the Neolithic.

Demosthenes (c. 386-322 B.C.) "distinguished orator and Athenian patriot of the wealthy landowning Attic deme of Paeania."

Alkaios (c. 620-595 B.C.) "a member of the Aeolic nobility."

Xenophon (c. 430-354 B.C.) "the member of a minor aristocratic Athenian family."

Thucydides (c. 460-400 B.C.), "Historian and general of noble Attic blood on his father's side and aristocratic Thracian blood through his mother."

Euripides (c. 480-406 B.C.) "scion of a Salamis landowning family." Euripides "had a fair and freckled complexion."

Socrates (c. 469-399 B.C.) Not a member of the aristocracy. Stone cutter son of a sculptor and a midwife. Middle class. Alpine racial type.

Greek Aristoi

Members of aristocratic families are vastly overrepresented among notable Greeks of the classical period. Thus, when discussing the racial type of ancient "Greeks", it is important to consider the racial type of the aristocracy.

From the point of view of physical anthropology the ethnic complexity of Greek society during the first millennium B.C. prohibits any attempt at a generalized statement of physical type based upon statistical averages of data derived from the available skeletal material. Substantial caste-like stratification, accompanied by relatively strict principles of caste endogamy separated the Indo-European-derived Eupatrids from the freemen and slave classes among whom the genetic influence of the autochthonous 'Pelasgian' population may have predominated. (Peterson 1974)

Peterson notes that IE languages eventually came to be spoken by racially and genetically diverse peoples, but he suggests:

In the course of some five or six millennia of expansion and conquest, an expanding IE upper caste may undoubtedly have preserved a high degree of genetic continuity (Pearson, 1974), while simply superimposing itself upon the autochthonous populations. Those who brought Indo-European speech into the newly-colonized territories became a ruling warrior nobility, as testified by the connotation 'noble' for arya in India and Persia, ariothez, in Greece (hence our 'aristocracy') and aire among the Celtic peoples. Indeed, the evidence-indicates that to a greater or lesser extent the invading arya, art, or aire maintained strict principles of endogamy in the choice of their official wives, and although in many areas they appear to have made a disproportionately high contribution to the gene pool of the indigenous population through the practice of keeping large numbers of concubines, they differed from the Uralic and Semitic peoples in their refusal to grant the illegitimate offspring of such marriages the social status of the father. Thus so far as legitimate offspring were concerned, in aristocratic Greek society, as in most early historic I.E. societies, the strict endogamy of the conquering classes was evidenced by the admission that 'we choose our wives like we choose our horses: by the lengths of their pedigrees' — and the high respect in which the Greeks held their horses is well known!

According to Peterson:

The fact that the immigrant Indo-Europeans had a clear-cut conception of what they regarded as their own distinctive and characteristic physiognomy — which would have been preserved and even accentuated by close inbreeding — is amply evidenced by Greek literature. Thus in the Odyssey (XII, 222) we undersland that the disguised Athena was described as being 'delicate ol countenance such as are the sons of kings', whereas in the Iliad (II, 216) Thersites, of autochthonous origin, is described as 'ill-formed and warped of head'. . . .

Coon mentions:

Villains, comical characters, satyrs, centaurs, giants, and all unpleasant people and those not to be admired, are often shown in sculpture and in vase painting as broad-faced, snub-nosed, and heavily bearded. Socrates, who belonged to this type, was maliciously compared to a satyr. This type may still be found its Greece, and is an ordinary Alpine. In the early skeletal, remains it is represented by some of the brachycephalic crania.

Socrates, son of a sculptor and a midwife, was not an aristocrat. The fact that his physical type was scorned by the aristocracy suggests that aristocrats were not Alpines, certainly not unmixed Alpines. Coon also notes that "The racial type to which Socrates belonged [a racial type not favored by the Indo-European elite] is today the most important" racial type in Greece.

Peterson suggests:

. . . as a potential supplement to the study of the incomplete skeletal remains, . . . the possible utility of a detailed analysis of the surviving Greek portraits, busts, herms and sculptures of all kinds, classified according to the historically verifiable tribal and family background of the individual portrayed. Such a classification becomes important in view of the generally accepted view that throughout the first millennium B.C., the population of the Aegean remained subdivided into a number of genetic isolates, instead of representing a simple homogenous Mendelian population.

The Greeks shown above and right, descendants of ancient aristocratic families, illustrate Indo-European features.

Needless to say, today you're more likely to see people who resemble the above in England or Sweden than in Greece. Coon affirms:

. . . one is impressed, after looking at the portrait busts of Athenians, and the clay masks of Spartans, with their resemblance to present-day western Europeans. This resemblance becomes less marked in the art of the Byzantines, however, where modern near Eastern faces are more frequent; but the Byzantines lived mostly outside of Greece.

Peterson reports that by "the period of Roman domination . . . the old god-descended aristoi were virtually extinct".

Angel (1945) confirms the presence of Nordic-Iranian types among the Iron age invaders of Greece, and their continuation as a minority in Athens into Classical times. His data also suggest the presence of "Corded Nordic and Nordic-Alpine" types among the earlier, Bronze age invaders, and Angel mentions a Late Helladic Nordic-Iranian Mycenaean Athenian, who "without much doubt . . . was a warrior". Nordic-Iranian types were present in Athens even into Late Hellenistic times.

Demosthenes (pictured above) inherited 84,000 drachmai from his father, whose "estate gives us some idea of the property of the top 300 citizens in the fourth century" (Webster 1973, 44). By contrast, "ninety per cent of the citizens were in the income range 180-480 drachmai", and "citizens, metics, and slaves worked side by side in the silver mines and were paid the same wage" (46).

The lower strata of citizens likely would have been of autochthonous (rather than Indo-European) origin. 317 BC census figures for Athens show 12,000 citizens in lowest class (thetes), 8,000 in the middle (hoplite) class, and 1,000 in the top two classes. The upper classes were greatly outnumbered by their fellow citizens, to say nothing of slaves and metics.

The aristocracy were a small, isolated segment of the population, and many aristocratic families practiced cremation "well into the Classical period" (Peterson 1974), severely limiting the usefulness of skeletal evidence in discussing the racial type of the aristocracy. But the evidence mentioned above is consistent with the idea that Nordic types would have been greatly overrepresented in the aristocracy, just as portraits suggest they were.

Incidentally, the practice of cremation is itself a clue.

. . . cremation . . . was associated with pastoral-nomadic Nordic populations, for whom the soul might roam free in death as in life. Thus, the introduction of cremation into Greece was taken by many scholars as indicating the arrival of a new Nordic and nomadic population . . . (Hall 1997, 116)

Whether cremation was introduced by some unknown, generalized "'northern elements'", or specifically by "Dorian descendants of the cremation-practising Urnfield populations who occupied Illyria and Bosnia in the Late Bronze Age" (Hall 1997, 116-117), it is clear that cremation as practiced by the Greek aristocracy had its origin among Nordics.

Mosaics from Pella, Macedonia (4th c. BC), illustrating Hellenic pigmentation. Coon observes that "blondism among the Greeks is mostly Nordic in origin". Original Hellenic features may have persisted longer in Macedonia than in other parts of the Greek world, but there is reason to believe such features would have been largely preserved throughout the Greek aristocracy into relatively late times.

Pigmentation

As for pigmentation, Coon (1939) tells us:

Greek literature and Greek art furnish an abundance of evidence as to the pigmentation and the characteristic facial features of the ancient inhabitants of Hellas. The Olympian gods, ancestors of the semi-heroes, were for the most part blond, with ivory shins and golden hair. Athene was gray eyed. Poseidon, however, was black haired [Note: Poseidon was derived from a pre-IE Mediterranean deity]. These gods were little different if we may believe Homer, from their descendants the heroes, most of whom were white limbed and golden haired.
Day (2002) finds that:
Useful information about real rather than fictional Greeks comes from Polemon, the second most important Greek writer on physiognomy, who wrote as late as the second century A.D. Polemon explains that "the pure Greek" of his time has fair skin and red hair, and resembles the man inclined to literature and philosophy, who has fair skin and fairish hair. Polemon may have drawn these ideas from Pseudo-Aristotle, the most important Greek physiognomist, who in his third century B.C. Physiognomica declares that the most perfect male type is the lion with its fair mane.

According to Angel, "Nordic-Iranians were tall and muscular, strong-necked, and probably included tawny-haired blue- or green-eyed blonds as well as brunets." Angel also mentions the "noteworthy resemblances" of this type "to Anglo-Saxons" and the partial "northwestern relations of this Greek type".

Modern Greeks are overwhelmingly dark-haired and rarely fair-skinned.

Have the Greeks changed since antiquity?

Of course. The old aristocracy, responsible for much of the greatness of ancient Greece, certainly no longer exists. That, in itself, is a big enough change. Even the peasants have changed, though the exact degree to which the Greek goatherd of today is descended from the ancient Greek goatherd is an open question.

Everyone knows about the major Slavic and Albanian influxes into Greece. As Paul Theroux puts it:

The Greeks had not taken very much interest in their past until Europeans became enthusiastic discoverers and diggers of their ruins. And why should they have cared? The Greeks were not Greek, but rather the illiterate descendants of Slavs and Albanian fishermen, who spoke a debased Greek dialect and had little interest in the broken columns and temples except as places to graze their sheep. (Pillars of Hercules, 315-316)

Given the movement of large numbers of Greeks into Anatolia during the Byzantine era, and the movements of Albanians and Slavs into Greece, it is always possible that a given Turk has as much or more classical Greek ancestry as a given modern Greek. And, there is always the strong possibility of a Turkic contribution to the Greek gene pool.

There has been gene flow into Greece from from Negroids and Mongoloids (see below), the extent of which is not easy to quantify at this time. However, absorption of genes from the Near East and North Africa likely happened on a much larger scale than the absorption of non-Caucasoid genes; and this recent non-European Caucasoid admixture may be more significant than non-Caucasoid admixture when discussing changes in the racial character of the Greek nation. Richards et al. (2002) find a "very high frequency (~20%) of recent gene flow" in eastern Mediterranean Europe.

Ancient vs. Modern: Dienekes Pontikos thinks these images are somehow equivalent. In fact, he's implied he believes the ancient Greek depicted here is "swarthier" than the modern "Greek". Personally, I don't consider a sun tan to be the same thing as obvious non-European ancestry.

The Near Easterners form a clear group, distinct from Europeans. The central and eastern Mediterranean populations of Europe, along with southeastern Europe, although positioned more closely to the other European populations, also show affinities with the Near East, but western Mediterranean Europe clusters with central and northern Europe. . . .

The southeast-northwest clines in classical marker frequencies have been interpreted, by comparison with radiocarbon evidence, as representing a substantial demic diffusion of Near Eastern farming communities into Europe in the early Neolithic period (Sokal et al. 1991; Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994). However, the pattern in mtDNA haplogroup frequencies that we see here indicates similarity between Europeans and Near Easterners primarily in southeastern Europe and along the Mediterranean, whereas archaeological evidence would point to the main expansion of agriculture being into central Europe (Bogucki 2000; Price 2000). Thus, it seems rather unlikely that the pattern in mtDNA haplogroup frequencies could have been generated mainly by a Neolithic expansion. . . .

The second PC of Y chromosome variation accounts for 26% of the variation, and it clusters most European regions at one pole while grouping the Near East at the other, with eastern Mediterranean and central Mediterranean Europe between the two poles. The main contributors to the gradients are haplogroups E and J (formerly haplogroups 21 and 9, both of which are frequent in the Near East) and, again, R* and N3 (both of which are more frequent in Europe). This points to gene flow from the Near East, as suggested by both Cavalli-Sforza et al. (1994) and Semino et al. (2000). Haplogroup J in Europe is interpreted more specifically by Semino et al. (2000) as the result of Neolithic dispersal. Curiously, however, haplogroups E and J are again most frequent along the Mediterranean coastline and rapidly dwindle as one moves into central Europe, where the archaeological record tells us the main farming expansion took place.

Founder analysis of mtDNA in Europe (Richards et al. 2000) can suggest a possible explanation for this pattern: it might be due, at least in part, to substantial recent (post-Neolithic) gene flow, rather than solely to Neolithic expansion. This mtDNA founder analysis, based on the comparison of matching sequence types (within haplogroups) between Europe and the Near East, suggested that there is no one-to-one correlation between migrations and major clades. The analysis for eastern Mediterranean Europe indicated a very high frequency (~20%) of recent gene flow, as compared with only ~10% Neolithic input. . . .

Angel (1945) sees evidence of an immigration trend, continuing from Roman times through Byzantine times and later, that brought Mediterranean, Eastern Alpine, and Armenoid elements [from the Near East, one presumes] by sea, and [Slavic speaking, in Byzantine times] Alpine and Dinaric elements from the north. Angel also believes that in Classical times, Athens absorbed a large population of slaves and metics.

Obviously, the Greek gene pool has received a great deal of outside input, which makes sense, based on Greece's location and history. Angel tries to stress the continuity of the Athenian people, but it's hard to see what's so continuous about an originally Mediterranean population which today is brachycephalic and largely Alpine, and in which an important minority racial element of earlier times has essentially disappeared. It should be understood that when Angel speaks of "continuity", he merely means that racial change in Greece is gradual, rather than sharp. In this sense, one could just as easily stress the "racial continuity" of Arabs as they gradually absorbed large numbers of sub-Saharan slaves.

Pete Sampras. So, have the Greeks "changed since antiquity"? You tell me. (Note that while Sampras is apparently a quarter Jewish, I am assured by certain Greeks that he is entirely modern Greek in appearance.)

Aris Poulianos

Grecocentric anthropologist Aris Poulianos makes stronger claims than Angel about Greek "continuity", insisting on "the incessant biological continuity of the Greeks all through the historic and prehistoric epochs, which refer at least to the Mesolithic and Upper Palaeolithic periods (15.000-30.000 years)." Poulianos's work is discredited by statements such as:

. . . continuity is . . . proved by the comparison of measurements of the contemporary inhabitants with those of the ancient skulls of Greece, which statistically show no differences . . .

As Angel's work shows -- and as common sense dictates -- the racial composition of Greece has changed quite markedly over time; and the genetic evidence proves that significant Neolithic and later gene flow has occured in Greece. If Poulianos is unable to detect differences between ancient and modern Greeks, his techniques are flawed.

Poulianos's credibility is further undermined by his bizarre assertions concerning linguistics.

We must indirectly admit that [the Sarakatsanees] also have the most ancient language, because their ancestors always spoke..and spoke only Greek for the last tenths of thousand years..50, 60, 70, perhaps even 100. On the contrary, the Indoeuropean theory only covers the last four thousand years. But even before the Indoeuropeans, didn't the inhabitants of this country speak for so many thousands of years? Aren't the living Sarakatsanees the proof today?

Needless to say, no mainstream Western scholar would support Poulianos's linguistic theories. However, Poulianos's work was warmly received in the Soviet Union. This is unsurprising: Poulianos did his doctoral dissertation at the University of Moscow; and with his fantasies of Greek-speaking Neanderthals, Poulianos is simply taking Soviet-style theories of ethnogenesis to their ridiculous extreme. In the final analysis, Poulianos is a crank, of little interest to anyone but Greek nationalists and Stalinist archaeologists.

A page promoting The Origin of the Greeks is able to report that hundreds of Eastern bloc state scientists "fully agreed with the scientific views of Mr. Aris. Poulianos, underlining the seriousness of the research", but the only Western scientist they can cite as having supported him is J.L. Angel. While it's true that Angel penned a perhaps under-critical review of Poulianos's book in AJPA, this friend of Poulianos nevertheless found The Origin of the Hellenes to be an "unsystematic" work, which omits half the relevant literature, "tends to overvalue speculations based on small samples", and leaves "a number of loose ends". On a positive note, Angel believes Poulianos's use of slang and "everyday Greek" instead of "stuffy" scientific language "should help to popularize anthropology in Greece, in spite of three or four quotations from Stalin, Marx, and Engels."

Incidentally, one of Poulianos's chief aims seems to have been to refute Fallmerayer's theory that modern Greeks are mostly descended from Slavs and Albanians. However:

The same study indicated that the Albanian-speaking, Slav-speaking (Monte Negro included) as well as Valaches (Vlachi) of the greater Macedonian region are in their majority also autochthonous and therefore the influences from abroad mainly concerns the adoption of the chronologically younger languages, which are in use today.

If this is the case, then it seems Poulianos can prove nothing about the degree to which Byzantine-era Slavic-speakers contributed to the modern Greek population. Whether or not these Slavic-speakers had predominantly autochthonous origins in the Balkans is irrelevant. They were still not the same people as the ancient Greeks. As well, looking at averages for the population as a whole obscures the fact that a disproportionate share of Greek contributions came from a numerically unimportant, genetically isolated, and racially distinct minority.

The source of classical Greek achievement

Angel mentions "Blegen's model of fusion of diverse material, social, and even psychological elements to form the culture of Classical Athens". Blegen is correct that Athenian cultural achievement owed something to the fusion of cultures. But, the key elements that seperated Greek thought and achievement from those of earlier civilizations originated with the Indo-Europeans:

While Egyptians and Babylonians collected a great deal of information about mathematics and astronomy and practiced impressive engineering on a grand scale, their "sciences" never had a really scientific basis. Their knowledge existed either as the lore collected by the priests or as the products of practical trial-and-error. Only the Indo-European Greeks actually systematized scientific and mathematical knowledge, and they were able to construct it into a system because the system itself was their concept of a Cosmic Order in which all events and phenomena were related through causality and its inexorable linkages of one event and phenomenon to another. . . .

"It is no accident," wrote V. Gordon Childe, "that the first great advances towards abstract natural science were made by the Aryan Greeks and the Hindus, not by the Babylonians or the Egyptians, despite their great material resources and their surprising progress in techniques – in astronomical observation for example. . . ." (Clark 1996)

Inspired by Blegen's model of the fusion of cultures, Angel looks to blending of racial types as "one of the real and probably indispensable little factors which help produce a great people and which underlie the whole history of civilization." What this theory ignores is the major role played by the endogamous aristocracy in Greek achievement. Since Classical times, Greece has received even more outside genetic input and has become even more blended. If this is the key to greatness, why has Greece been going downhill since the Classical age?

Murphy (1941) takes a similar view to Angel's, but acknowledges another factor:

. . . which can be deduced from Darwin's work in general and which later researches have brought more into the light. It appears that the human racial crossings which produce the most marked instances of efflorescence in genius and ability, take place among the varieties which are comparatively akin to each other and that, on the contrary, where the varieties which hybridize are distant from each other in type . . . there is a deficiency in the production of superior ability.

Murphy mentions "conquering hordes . . . from the Eurasian steppes" settling the Fertile Crescent and "creating a highly developed civilization"; and he mentions a process "'seen in ancient Greece or the Florentine Renaissance; first a migration of peoples (immigration of strong, warlike races), then, for centuries, a relative intellectual calm, and, finally, a period of abundant genius.'" It's not clear why those events should be explained in terms of blending of racial types, rather than in say, the blending of cultures, the imposition of important elements of the invading cultures on the new lands, or the acquisition by the "warlike races" of resources which allow them to fulfill their innate potential. Murphy does suggest that "mingling of the successive waves of immigrants" may be more important than "the crossing of the invading people with aborigines".

It would certainly seem that the composition of the immigrants is of key importance, regardless of whether or not "hybrid vigor" plays some role. These periods of greatness were invariably followed by periods of decline or mediocrity, accompanied by continuing or increased blending of racial elements. Wave after wave of Alpines and Mediterraneans continued to arrive in Greece from Roman times onward. But blending with these new arrivals never produced an "efflorescence". W.D. Hamilton's (1975) theory is preferrable to that of Angel:

The incursions of barbaric pastoralists seem to do civilizations less harm in the long run than one might expect. Indeed, two dark ages and renaissances in Europe suggest a recurring pattern in which a renaissance follows an incursion by about 800 years. It may even be suggested that certain genes or traditions of pastoralists revitalize the conquered people with an ingredient of progress which tends to die out in a large panmictic population for the reasons already discussed. I have in mind altruism itself, or the part of the altruism which is perhaps better described as self-sacrificial daring. By the time of the renaissance it may be that the mixing of genes and cultures (or of cultures alone if these are the only vehicles, which I doubt) has continued long enough to bring the old mercantile thoughtfulness and the infused daring into conjunction in a few individuals who then find courage for all kinds of inventive innovation against the resistance of established thought and practice. Often, however, the cost in fitness of such altruism and sublimated pugnacity to the individuals concerned is by no means metaphorical, and the benefits to fitness, such as they are, go to a mass of individuals whose genetic correlation with the innovator must be slight indeed. Thus civilization probably slowly reduces its altruism of all kinds, including the kinds needed for cultural creativity (see also Eshel 1972).

The peak of Greek civilization was only reached after the "ingredient of progress" had been introduced by the Indo-European invaders. By the time complete mediocrity set in, the disproportionately Nordic and Indo-European-descended aristocracy had all but disappeared. Lundman agrees that:

The racial structure of the old historical European peoples - the Greeks, Romans, and Celts - has been treated at length in my book Geographische Anthropologie (1967). Certainly, these peoples had, at least in their upper social strata, stronger Nordic components than the present inhabitants of these lands.

Roger Pearson (1991) has suggested the possibility that "Europe has suffered a severe dysgenic decline over the past two thousand years". If this is true, Greece, which today has perhaps the lowest average IQ in Europe, may have been particularly hard hit. On the other hand, it may well be that only the elite classes in ancient Greece were exceptionally intelligent. And, when the elites died out or were absorbed by the much more numerous masses, the intellectual power of Greece was dissipated.

A graphical outline of Greek racial history

The above chart, from Angel (1944), illustrates the racial history of Greece (arrows, highlighting added). Even Angel is forced to acknowledge the presence of an important Nordic element in Classical Greece. Two points need to be stressed.

  • As mentioned above, many aristocratic Greeks were cremated. Add to that the fact that the aristocracy made up only a tiny segment of the Greek population, and it should be obvious that the relatively few ancient Greek skeletal remains that have been recovered will have little to say about the racial types of the more important classes of ancient Greeks; but, the trends are suggestive, particularly when considered along with the evidence from portraiture.

  • "Nordic-Iranian" is an overly broad category, which likely includes both European Nordics and eastern Iranian types. So, although a "Nordic-Iranian" element remains in Greece even into Byzantine times, this doesn't necessarily mean that classical Nordics survived in significant numbers. It's interesting that Angel indicates that the dominant Nordic-Iranian types in Classical Greece were D1-3 [D1 is a type of Nordic "between Anglo-Saxon and Keltic area norms" and D2 is the Corded type], while, in Roman times, there was a shift to types D3&4 [D3 is "Iranian-Mediterranean" and D4 is "Iranian"].

A note about J. Lawrence Angel

While there is no reason to doubt Angel's sub-racial classifications of ancient Greek skeletal remains, the conclusions Angel draws based on his analyses are highly questionable. Angel had already decided upon his conclusions before he ever set foot in Greece or examined a Greek skull.

I came to Greece as a graduate student hoping to unravel the social biology of this area, partly in answer to Nazi racist interpretations. (The People of Lerna, p. 6)

Angel's anti-racist politics cloud his work. To take an example, Angel (1973) reports that the Mycenaean Shaft Grave royalty are 38.1% Nordic-Iranian and 0% (!) Mediterranean. Angel acknowledges that "they show less Mediterranean, Basic White, and Alpine ('pre-Greek' trait combinations) and more Nordic-Iranian and Dinaroid-Mixed Alpine tendencies than commoners show." Angel admits that "[p]ossibly the aristocrats are a little more fully derived from . . . [Indo-European] intruders than the commoners are", but he immediately dismisses this hypothesis in favor of his pet "social selection" theory. The royals average "about 5 cm taller than their subjects"; they have "remarkably thick bones" and "massive bodies and heads"; and they differ subracially from their subjects "in the direction of the Iranian steppe". Yet, Angel would have us believe they owe their distinctiveness exclusively to diet and the Indo-European invaders who imposed the Greek language failed to leave a strong genetic imprint on the Greek aristocracy. Given the two theories:

  1. That "the aristocrats are a little more fully derived from . . . [Indo-European] intruders".
  2. That "the rulers spring directly from the extraordinarily mixed late Middle Bronze Age population which they ruled over", the differences between the former and the latter being due to "better diet" and "social selection".
Surely, after examining the data, no objective observer would claim (2) is a stronger theory than (1). But, undoubtedly owing to his politics, Angel does. The data Angel presents is of interest; the anti-Nordicist spin Angel puts on the data -- and his pro (sub)race-mixing agitprop -- can be safely ignored.

One final note. Angel mentions that the aristocrats were "20% more variable than normal" in "head and face form and body size". High metrical variability need not imply heterogeneous origins, though Angel would seem to want us to assume such. In Jacobs et al. (1996), a paper discussing the subject of racial typology with reference to NE Europe, the authors mention that:

. . . the values [of variance of cranial dimensions] for the Danish sample are particularly significant for those who would privilege the use of anthropological types as a means to diagnose the diverse ethnogenetic origins of a skeletal sample. The Danish sample is consistently and without exception the most variable in all comparisons. Yet chronological, archaeological and other data . . . suggest that this sample also approximates more closely than do any of the others a single, closed and panmictic breeding group. Thus there is the least probability of mixing of biologically different 'types' in instance of the sample which shows the greatest osteometric variability. (pp. 291-292)

Negroids in ancient Greece

An Ethiopian living in Greece in the 1st century A.D. "Memnon, Ethiopian favorite of Sophist Herodes Atticus"

RM claims:

"There’s no evidence that blacks were at all present in Ancient Greece"

The above statement is blatantly false.

In his book Race, John R. Baker writes that:

Evans provides a few pictures of persons showing Negrid characters, and suggests that 'partly negroized elements' may have been brought to Crete as captives. (517)

(Before you afrocentrists get your hopes up, know that Baker makes clear: "No one has ever suggested, on evidence either from skulls or pictures, that any non-Europid people participated in the origin or development of Cretan civilization.")

The presence of Negroid or partially-Negroid types in Greece is confirmed by cranial evidence. J.L. Angel reports:

In my own skeletal samples from Greece I note apparent negroid nose and mouth traits in two of fourteen Early Neolithic (sixth millenium B.C.), only two or three more among 364 from fifth to second millenium B.C., one among 113 Early Iron Age, one or two among 233 Classic and Hellenistic skeletons, but four clear Negroids (all from one area of Early Christian Corinth) among ninety-five Roman period, two among eighty-five Medieval, and of course ten among fifty-two Turkish period Greeks, yet none among 202 of Romantic (nineteenth century) date.

Frank Snowden has researched the presence of blacks in the ancient Greece from the standpoint of art and literature. His findings include:

Both the literary and archaeological evidence points to a not infrequent crossing between blacks and whites. Nothing in the observations on such unions, whether marriage or concubinage, resembles certain modern strictures on racial mixture.

Of course one reason for the color bar which recently existed in the West was the belief that it was race mixing which led to the collapse of Greek, Roman, and other civilizations. . . .

No laws in the Greco-Roman world prohibited unions of blacks and whites. Ethiopian blood was interfused with that of Greeks and Romans. No Greek or Roman author condemned such racial mixture. . . . The scientists Aristotle and Pliny, like Plutarch, commented as scientists on the physical appearance of those born of black-white racial mixture but included nothing resembling certain modern strictures on miscegenation. . . . It is safe to assume, therefore, that in course of time many Ethiopians were assimilated into a predominantly white population. (Blacks in Antiquity, 193-195)

With respect to the number of blacks in ancient Greece, Snowden states:

Even though we cannot state, in the manner of modern sociologists and historians,the ratio of Blacks to Whites in either Greece or Italy, we can say that Ethiopians were by no means few or rare sights and that their presence, whatever their numbers, constituted no color problem. (Blacks in Antiquity, 186)

Most slaves in Greece were Caucasoid. But, since slaves were a large fraction of the population, even if blacks made up a small minority of slaves many may have been present. A Greek source gives a figure of 400,000 slaves in Attica in 317 BC, compared to 21,000 adult male citizens and 10,000 adult male metics (resident aliens). While modern authors recognize that the 400,000 figure "must be wrong" (Webster 1973, 41), it seems that all Athenians who could afford to owned slaves, and some owned up to 1,000. In the end, Webster estimates that slaves made up roughly a third of the population of Athens (62,000 out of a total population of 186,000 -- personally, I think this may be an underestimate). If one third of the remaining population consisted of metics, that means that less than half the inhabitants of Athens were citizens.

Mulattoes in ancient Greece

Some individuals claim that, while there may have been non-white slaves present in ancient Greece, Greek customs would have prevented any mixing with foreigners. The upper classes did, initially anyway, strongly resist mixing with foreigners. However, the upper classes did not make up anywhere near the bulk of the people living in Greece. There is no reason to expect the slaves and lower or middle classes (who greatly outnumbered the aristocracy) would have abided by the same customs as the upper classes. And, as Peterson notes, "many [members of the merchant and artisan classes] were of foreign extraction", so one hardly expects them to have had qualms about mixing with "foreigners". It should also be noted that:

The slave had the same legal protection as a metic, and he had his chance of buying freedom . . . Politically, it might be right to think of citizens, metics, and slaves as three different grades. But economically, and therefore to a considerable extent socially, they ran parallel. Metics and slaves were certainly found in quantity in the same income range which covered ninety per cent of the citizens, the unskilled and skilled laborers. (Webster 1973, 47).

Though after 451 there were laws "restricting citizenship to the children of two citizen parents", Webster thinks it likely that "in fact a number of Athenians did have children by foreigners or freedwomen, and their children were accepted as citizens" (1973, 54).

There can be no doubt that the slave and metic populations were absorbed into the Greek population as a whole. Regardless of whether or not they mixed with citizens in Classical times (and there seems to be little doubt that they did mix, on at least some occasions, with at least the lower strata of citizenry), they didn't just disappear at the end of the Classical age. They would have continued to increase in number over time, and eventually they must have been incorporated into the people we today call "Greeks". There is no reason the situation with negroid slaves/metics would have been any different.

According to Frank Snowden:

Black-white sexual relations were never the cause of great emotional crises and many blacks were physically assimilated into the predominantly white populations of the Mediterranean world.

Snowden also mentions:

the number of references to Ethiopians in Greek literature of the fifth century BC, on the appearance of mulatto children following the presence of blacks in Greece in the army of Xerxes, and on the many artistic representations of the mid- and late-fifth century BC reflecting this anthropological evolution.

Arthur Kemp has compiled an extensive set of references on the presence of Negroes and racial mixing in ancient Greece. Primary sources make it clear that there were, in fact, mixed race offspring born in Greece (and Rome, for that matter). In light of this fact, it seems obvious that there has been introgression of sub-Saharan genes into the Greek gene pool.

Negroid admixture in Greece

Considering the foregoing, it should come as no surprise that Richards et al. (2000) detected Ethiopian mtDNA haplogroup M1 in Greece. Additionally, sub-Saharan Y-chromosome haplogroup A (most common among Khoisians and Ethiopians) was found in an individual from Mitilini (Di Giacomo et al. in press). Other sub-Saharan haplogroups are found in Greece's neighbors. Note, Greece remains relatively little studied with respect to population genetics. The few relevant studies that have been done have fairly small sample sizes. It's too early to say much about levels of sub-Saharan mtDNA markers compared to other countries in Europe. In any event, exact levels of recent sub-Saharan mtDNA and Y-chromosome markers aren't all that relevant, since larger amounts of Negroid genes may have entered Greece via Negroid-admixed, E3b-carrying North African males.

E3b, the most common Y-chromosome haplogroup in Greece, "probably originated in eastern Africa" (Semino et al. 2004). It has been proposed that the most frequent E3b subclade in Greece, E-M78, which accounts for nearly half of Peloponnesian Y-chromosomes (Cruciani et al. 2004), originated in Somalia (Sanchez et al. 2003). Bearing in mind the above, it is perhaps not so surprising that the much maligned study "HLA Genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan Origin of the Greeks" independently reported a genetic connection between Ethiopians and Greeks (Arnaiz-Villena et al. 2001).

In addition to ancient admixture, some Negroid admixture may have accrued to Greece during Ottoman times. Buxton and Rice (1931) mention that "in Cyprus there is a greater proportion of platyrrhiny among the lower classes than in other social strata, but this is perhaps due to the importation of negro slaves by the Turks." Angel (1945) mentions a "Turkish period skeleton" from Athens, "which is unquestionably the remains of a Negroid individual, though possibly with very slight white admixture." Interestingly, 4.3% of Y-chromosomes in a sample of Turkish Cypriots are sub-Saharan (Cruciani et al. 2004; values for Greek Cypriots aren't reported).

Mongoloid admixture in Greece

In addition to Negroid admixture, there is clear genetic evidence for Mongoloid admixture in Greece. In a sample of 118 Greeks, "HpaI morph 1 [a Mongoloid marker] was detected for the first time in a European sample" (Astrinidis 1994).

3% of Greek Y-chromosomes belong to HG26, a haplogroup which is found at high frequencies in some Mongoloid populations. However, the presence of HG26 is not -- as Dienekes once claimed -- proof of Mongoloid ancestry, since HG26 is defined by a very old mutation (HG26 is ancestral to the common European haplogroup HG1). The original bearers of HG26 were most likely either Caucasoid, or of a racial type ancestral to both Caucasoids and Mongoloids. Regardless, many Asian steppe populations belong predominantly to Y-chromosome haplogroups which are also found in Europe (HG26, HG1), making it difficult to assess the male Mongoloid contribution in Greece with the data we currently have. I expect that further study will demonstrate Central Asian ancestry in Greece, as has already been demonstrated in nearby countries.

Mongoloid and Central Asian mtDNA and Y markers are present on the Croatian island Hvar.

Worthy of note is the finding of considerable frequency of haplogroup P*(xM173) in the population of the island of Hvar. According to Wells et al this lineage displays maximum in Central Asia while being rare in Europe, Middle East and East Asia. Its presence in Hvar recapitulates our finding of mtDNA haplogroup F on the island of Hvar and in mainland Croatian population that is virtually absent in Europe but, again, common in populations from Central and Eastern Asia. There are several possibilities for the occurrence of the ancestral lineage of M173. One is the well-documented alliance of Avars (a Mongol people) and Slavs (Croatians) that followed Avar arrival to the eastern Adriatic in 6th century AD. The other is the expansion of the Ottoman Empire from the 16th to 18th century AD when refugees from the western Balkan frequently immigrated to the islands. Lastly, the ancient Silk Road linking China with western Asia and Europe could be a possible path of P(xM173) lineage, too. Any of these migratory patterns could have introduced this mutation to the investigated population. (Barac et al. 2003)
Paleolithic European HG1 is marked with the M173 mutation. As noted above, P*(xM173) is found in Croatia, indicating the presence of Central Asian genes in the Balkans. It would be interesting to see what proportion of the HG1 in Greece is marked with M173, but I'm not aware of any studies which have reported this data.

In Anatolia, "[t]he most reliable estimates suggest roughly 30% Central Asian admixture for both mitochondrial and Y-chromosome loci" (Di Benedetto et al. 2001). Since there is no strong genetic barrier seperating Greece and Anatolia (see, for example, Simoni et al. 1999), there is no reason to believe modern Greeks have been shielded from the significant Central Asian input in their neighbors.

It should be obvious from history and geography that Greeks have more Mongoloid ancestry than, e.g., Germans; just as Hungarians no doubt have more Mongoloid admixture than western Europeans, so to do Greeks. And Greeks certainly have vastly more Mongoloid admixture than the British. See below for examples of Greek celebrities with obvious Mongoloid admixture.

Photographs of Greeks

RM's photos of "Greeks"

Some of the "Greek" celebrities RM has posted are probably not fully Greek by ancestry. For example, Bob Costas' full name is "Robert Quinlan Costas". Unless someone can think of a better reason why a "Greek" would have an Irish surname for a middle name, I'll take this piece of evidence to mean Costas is probably half-Irish. It is hard to confirm whether or not the other Greek-Americans RM has posted are of full Greek ancestry. For example, I've heard that Alexi Lalas is only half-Greek.

Typical Greeks:

Corina Stergiaou (left), "a very typical Greek woman", says Dienekes; Pete Sampras (right), "looks entirely Greek", according to Pontian Greek and amateur anthropologist Dienekes Pontikos.

Greek students:


Ethnic Greeks enrolled at UK and US universities.

Some Greek celebrities with visible Mongoloid ancestry:

L-R: Ioanna Soulioti; Marios Fragkoulis; Yanna Lyberi

More Greeks with apparent non-European ancestry:

L-R: Vana Barba (Negroid strain?); K. Dmitris Tsatsos (Hither Asiatic); Unknown (Orientalid strain?)

In the interest of bandwidth, I'll leave it at that. Though, if I wished to, I could list a dozen genuinely non-European-looking Greeks for every "Hamito-Semitic" Briton RM has posted.

Addendum

In response to this page, RM has renamed his "Myth #7" to something that makes a bit more sense (though he is still, of course, wrong in implying that the Greeks haven't changed since antiquity). RM has also removed the photo of Bob Costas.

RM has been forced to retract his wishful, unresearched claim that "no evidence [exists] that blacks were at all present in Ancient Greece".

Summary and Conclusions

  • The Greeks have changed since antiquity; changes include the blending of what, in classical times, had been genetic isolates and the disappearance of the elites responsible for much of ancient Greek achievement. Gene flow into Greece has also occured, the exact levels and effects of which are not known.
  • Primary sources, art, and anthropological evidence support the presence of blacks and the birth of mulattoes in ancient Greece.
  • The Greeks have Negroid admixture, the exact extent of which is indeterminable with current data. Though, to be fair, they probably have less Negroid admixture than the Portuguese.
  • The Greeks have Mongoloid admixture.
  • More research is needed before we can make definitive pronouncements on, e.g.:
    • the precise levels of Negroid and Mongoloid ancestry in Greece.
    • exactly how recent the ~20% "recent" Near Eastern gene flow to Greece is. This gene flow is from later than the Neolithic, but how much is from historical times and later? And to what degree has this admixture altered the Greek population?
    • how much Slavs and Albanians contributed to the Greek gene pool, and what sort of genetic impact the impact the Turks had on Greece.

Sources

Angel, J. Lawrence. A racial analysis of the ancient Greeks: An essay on the use of morphological types. American Journal of Physical Anthropology. Volume 2 N.S., Number 4. 1944.

Angel, J. Lawrence. Skeletal Material from Attica. Hesperia. Volume 14, Issue 4. The American Excavations in the Athenian Agora: Twenty-Seventh Report. Oct-Dec 1945. 279-363.

Angel, J. Lawrence. Human Skeletons from Grave Circles at Mycenae. In G. E. Mylonas (ed.). Ho Taphikos Kyklos B ton Mykenon [The Grave Circle B at Mycenae (Greek)] Volume I. Athens: Athenais Archaiologikes Etaireias, 1973. pp. 379-97.

Arnaiz-Villena et al. HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks. Tissue Antigens. 2001 Feb;57(2):118-27.

Astrinidis, A. and A. Kouvatsi. Mitochondrial DNA polymorphism in northern Greece. Hum Biol. 1994 Aug;66(4):601-11.

Baker, John R. Race. Oxford, London, 1974.

Barac et al. Y chromosomal heritage of Croatian population and its island isolates. Eur J Hum Genet. 2003 Jul;11(7):535-42.

Buxton, L.H. Dudley and D. Talbot Rice. Report on the Human Remains found at Kish. Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland. Volume 61. Jan-Jun 1931. 57-119.

Clark, Edwin. The Roots of the White Man (Part I): A Reply to Jared Taylor. American Renaissance. Vol 7, No. 11. November, 1996.

Coon, Carleton S. The Greeks in The Races of Europe. Macmillan, New York, 1939.

Cruciani et al. Phylogeographic analysis of haplogroup e3b (e-m215) y chromosomes reveals multiple migratory events within and out of Africa. Am J Hum Genet. 2004 May;74(5):1014-22. Epub 2004 Mar 24

Day, John V. In Quest of Our Linguistic Ancestors: The Elusive Origins of the Indo-Europeans. The Occidental Quarterly, Volume 2, Number 3. Fall 2002.

Di Benedetto et al. DNA diversity and population admixture in Anatolia. Am J Phys Anthropol. 2001 Jun;115(2):144-56.

Di Giacomo et al. Clinal patterns of human Y chromosomal diversity in continental Italy and Greece are dominated by drift and founder effects. Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution. In Press.

Hall, Jonathan M. Ethnic Identity in Greek Antiquity. Cambridge, New York, Cambridge University Press, 1997.

Hamilton, W.D. Innate social aptitudes of man: an approach from evolutionary genetics. In R. Fox (ed.), Biosocial Anthropology. Malaby Press, London, 133-53. 1975.

Jacobs et al. Pitfalls in the Search for Ethnic Origins: a Cautionary Tale regarding the Construction of "Anthropological Types" in Pre-Indo-European Northeast Europe. In Jones-Bley and Huld (eds.), The Indo-Europeanization of Northern Europe. Washington, D.C.: Institute for the Study of Man, 1996.

Lundman, Bertil. The racial history of Europe: an outline in The Races and Peoples of Europe.

Murphy, John. Racial Crossing and Cultural Efflorescence. Man. Volume 41. Jan-Feb 1941.

Pearson, Roger. Some comments on Lynn's thesis by an anthropologist. Mankind Quarterly. Fall/Winter 1991. Vol. 32. Issue 1/2. p175.

Peterson, R. The Greek Face. The Journal of Indo-European Studies. Volume 2, Number 4. Winter, 1974. 385-406.

Richards et al. Tracing European founder lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA pool. Am J Hum Genet 2000 Nov;67(5):1251-76. Supplementary data.

Richards et al. In Search of Geographical Patterns in European Mitochondrial DNA. Am J Hum Genet 2002 Nov;71(5):1168-74.

Sanchez et al. Y-Chromosome analysis of the Somali population suggests the origin of the haplogroup E3b1. 2nd DNA POLYMORPHISMS IN HUMAN POPULATIONS International Symposium - Paris - December 5-6, 2003

Semino et al. Origin, diffusion, and differentiation of y-chromosome haplogroups e and j: inferences on the neolithization of europe and later migratory events in the mediterranean area. Am J Hum Genet. 2004 May;74(5):1023-34. Epub 2004 Apr 06.

Simoni et al. Patterns of gene flow inferred from genetic distances in the Mediterranean region. Hum Biol. 1999 Jun;71(3):399-415.

Snowden, Frank M., Jr. Blacks in Antiquity: Ethiopians in the Greco-Roman experience. Cambridge. The Belknap Press of Harvard University Press. 1970.

Tenzer, Lawrence R. How Do We Inherit Our Skin Color? from A Completely New Look At Interracial Sexuality.

Theroux, Paul. The Pillars of Hercules: A Grand Tour of The Mediterranean. G.P. 1995.

Webster, T.B.L. Athenian Culture and Society. Batsford, London, 1973.

Additional reading

The Negro presence in classical Greece -- an overview and References to Race in Classical Grecian writing by Arthur Kemp

Nordic Hellas by Karl Earlson

Photos of ancient Greek statuary (scroll down to "griechisch")

The Myth of Greek Ethnic 'Purity'

Modern Greece: re-invention and pretension




181 comments:

Anonymous said...

Such erudite effort to denigrate a nation and question the genetic-cultural continuity of the Greeks can only be attributed to a chip on your shoulders too heavy to bear. Get it through your heads, you freckle-faced, pink-skinned wannabees: you will forever be overshadowed by the vibrant spirit of things that has flourished and still flourishes in Greece, be it past or present.Your ridiculous claims put you in the good company of those Afrocentric scholars(?) who advocate that the first Greeks were black! A real freak parade! The Greek character of today in physique and mentality is as diverse as it was three millenia ago, ranging from dark-haired and brunette to blond (the latter always in a minority, or else ancient writers would never have felt the need to emphasize the blondness of a given hero). Learn Greek, mingle with the people and you will find all the vices and virtues that described the ancient Greeks amongst their descendants today. Do not do this, and condemn yourselves to a smug ignorance of reality. Really, why is it that no other nation has been subjected to such scorn and scrutiny about its continuity as the modern Greeks? Does it hurt so much to be so distanced from the country's glorious past? In any event, even if the modern Greeks were the mongrels you paint them out to be, they are still more likely to have more in common with the ancient inhabitants of Greece than any other western European who had civilization imposed on him by the Roman Legions. Nothing fermented in Europe, for civilization was force fed by the Roman sword, whereas in Greece there has always been cultural and ethnic continuity.
Keep hurting, barbarians. You deserve it.

Anonymous said...

Let's don't overcomplicate things and stick to the written records. As moslems were conquering parts of the Byzantine Middle East, multitudes of Christian refuges from Asia Minor, Syria, and even Egypt poured into "safe" European Grece. Here's your modern Mediteranean looking Greek type vs. norhtern looking Greeks of the archaic and classical times.

Anonymous said...

Among 7 guided BILLION exhausted people on Earth, cannibalism may destroy ALL of them, if we do not RECONCILIATE soon, stopping aggressives, boycotting ovepopulation religions , and openly discussing about the sapped direct-democratic Golden Century, that can still offer humankind the UNIFIED list for elections solution! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvF1ha-M40Uhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scKqrz754gUPS: No bones have ever prooved that mass migrations ever happened in Northeastern Mediterranean, thus autochthons Greeks always absorbed passing few families and sometimes changed language to save kids by barbarian haters, including Greek originated Myceneans, Troyans, Pelleans and janissaries.

Anonymous said...

I agree with the comment below. You get an A for effort but an F for attainment. This paper contributes nothing of value. I think someone's a little jealous of Greek-American billionaire families such as Latsis, Niarchos and Calamos to name but a few. We have not fallen in modern times. We have given you the super oil-tanker (Stavros Niarchos), the electic guitar (Leonidas Fender), the Blackberry (Mike Lazaridis), the pap-smear (Dr Georgios Papanikolaou) to name but a few contributions to modern society.

theo said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

http://www.hellenicsociety.org/images/Renaissance08/Greeks%20being%20Greek.jpg

Greek moneys

Hellenas said...

Answering to the question "are Greeks white?" YES, the Greeks/Hellenes are WHITE, some of us just are sun-tanned. According to the Aristotelion university of Thessaloniki, of Greek Macedonia, The Hellenes are 75% paleolithic in Europe and 25% Neolithic(meaning that half of the 25% came from Middle East/Near East and from Central/Northern Europe). ONLY 12,50% OF GREEKS ARE NOT EUROPEANS. As for the "Turks", they are mixed with us not we with them.

Hellenas... said...

A nice site for Nordics

You are not the ancient Hellenes, neither Apollon.

http://www.freewebs.com/carthia/racialcontroversy.htm

Kristina said...

Poor Nordic trash can't accept that your people were living in Huts and had no culture whatsoever before the Romans & Greeks discovered you.

You ideals go against all historical evidence if Greeks were Nordic they wouldn't have described the barbarians as "Galatoi" which translates into "Milky ones" or "Ones with fair skin as white as milk".

Anonymous said...

Its funny how nordic people can't accept its culture was as basic as the culture of african or american tribes. Always looking at lies like this cheap investigation to feel better.

Come on nordic people! give a try to the fact that civilization has nothing to do with race but with attitude and freedom. We the greeks (black curly haired & dark skinned as we were) knew that centuries before you, that's why we built what we built.

Old germanic peoples were not but archaic warriors, thieves and felons until they turned to the roman and greek values. They were certainly smarter in doing so than modern nazis.


From a gothic and greek descendant

Hellenas... said...

Are the Greeks "still" Indo-European? Were they ever?

ALL ANSWERS HERE:

http://hellas2010.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=raceandanthropology&action=display&thread=5

Saviour, Oxford. said...

You know what? From a Greek point of view I found your article interesting and well thought/researched. I certainly believe that a lot of admixing has happened in Greece/Hellas and it is very obvious if you travel around the country.

But...

What did you accomplish exactly by doing it?

I hope you appreciate the fact that civilization as you now know it is based on those little "dark skinned" people.

The spirit of ancient Greece does not lie with some homeric, blond hero like Alcibiades, but Socrates, the lowly, ugly, mutt face of a commoner.

Fighter, Thinker, Human.

Please do not forget that Nordic countries at the time were little more than specs in the map, a motley collection of townships that did little more than war incessantly, and in a disorganized manner at that.

I'm not sure about the percentages of Aryan-negroid etc etc admixes in the region's populace, but the fact remains:

Greek/Hellenic have been spoken in the area for at least 3 millenia. The fact that a modern Greek, well educated (in the contemporary language form) can understand something written 2000 years ago should speak volumes.

Can you say the same for the Germans?

PS.: While you started your research and carried it through in a very scientific manner, you really managed to screw it up at the end with those celebrity/student pictures.
I hope the fair people of the United Kingdom and their genetic heritage in the future will not be judged by a nut-case with photos of Ashley Cole.

Hellenas... said...

"I certainly believe that a lot of admixing has happened in Greece/Hellas and it is very obvious if you travel around the country."

That's not true. Hellas for the most part is Atlanto-Mediterranean/East Mediterranean(Westerns) or Pontic(Russians) or Aegean(Hellenes) & East-Alpine, as Ancient Hellas was, all other types form a minority. So we are not so mixed as well.

"I hope you appreciate the fact that civilization as you now know it is based on those little "dark skinned" people."

First of all, the Hellenes are not "little", Carleton S. Coon "The stature mean for Greeks in general runs about 167 cm., and there seems to be little regional variation; those in Asia Minor and in the Crimea are a millimeter shorter, those measured in Boston a millimeter taller. The Greeks are as tall as most South Germans or northern Frenchmen;" and secondly, their pigmentation is "About half of them have brunet-white or light brown skin color, the rest the usual pinkish-white of central and northern Europe;". This 25% of light brown skin color is also untrue, as most are sun-tanned.

Anonymous said...

Todays Greeks are the Sole and Legal modern representatives of the Hellenic legacy which includes Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity.

No other modern people in the Balkans [Haemus] Peninsula or on this planet are closer to the ancient Hellenes than todays modern Greeks.

The Internet is Littered with ant-Greek propaganda designed and developed to Rubbish the modern Greeks both on their National Character and on their Cultural Heritage...We have since learned that most of it emenates from Turkic and Slavic sources, they aim to detach the modern Greeks from certain elements of their cultural heritage in order to usurp it for themselves, see FYRoM Name Dispute.

Anonymous said...

Greeks...since the beginning, have been a seafaring International People consequently Greeks met and intermingled with other peoples.

Greeks are said to be "cousins" to a wide variety of peoples.

The Greek Character having formed over millenia, can be summarized as being multi-layered and multifaceted.

Most people would firstly consider the Greek Hellenic people as being a Mediterraneans but there is more.

1....Mediterranean: Greeks could be clustered together with Italians, Maltese, Spaniards, Portuguese and to a lesser extent the French, within the context of a greater Greaco-Roman civilization.

2....Western European: since, in the West, Greece is considered to be the cradle of Western civilization.

3....Eastern European: since Greeks baptized christianized and civilized the Slavic Tribes into the Greek Orthodox Religion and Byzantium.

4....Middle-Eastern: since the Greek expansion into Asia ensured prolonged ties with Oriental Eastern Cultures.

5....Balkanian: Greeks are not comfortable with this term, Greeks prefer the term Southeastern European....anyway, a Balkan Identity similar to that of the Albanians, Serbians, Bulgarians, Romanians does exist. There are common elements, contributions from the Eastern Roman Empire and also from the Ottoman Empire, all this bears testament to shared attributes between Greek Hellenic and others...Infusion of Greek Hellenic genes into the various gene pools of other peoples is best explained by the works of Luca Cavali-Sforza, the world's leading geneticist.

The Greeks have always been an International People since time immemorial... The Greek Character is Multi-layered and Multifaceted, drawing in embedded experiances from five different geographical locations

The Greeks were never Restricted to one particular country, there were no countries with fixed border's in ancient times.

Greece in ancient times could be visualized spanning from the far West of Spain.....to as far East as Georgia.

There was never a country called Greece in ancient times, instead there were Many Greeks inhabiting Many regions....from Spain to Georgia.

Anonymous said...

Talking about direct blood relations with any of the ancient peoples from antquity is something the Turkics and the SouthSlavs accuse the modern Greeks of doing, but there have been Instances where Turkics and SouthSlavs were found to be doing the exact same thing in order to justify FYRoM's ex-Yugoslav SouthSlavs connections to Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity and the modern Bulgarian connections back to the ancient Thracians...This is Ill-advised, it is fraught with all sorts of academic/biological and genetic stumbling blocks simply because nobody really knows to which Blood Type or to which Dna haplogroups the ancient Macedonians or the ancient Thracians actually belonged!

Suffice to say, the modern Greek claims of continuity are Not actually based on direct blood connections, the Greeks have always said they can trace their lineage back to the ancient peoples of antiquity...Not directly, but in a somewhat fragmented fashion!

Modern Greeks can trace their history and heritage back, in a "backwards compatible" fashion, consistant and compatible to, and synchronized with the established historical record...traversing a time continuum spanning many thousands of years.

Linguistically and Culturally...It is Todays Greeks that can legitimately claim to be the Sole and Legal modern Representatives of the Hellenic Legacy which Includes Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity. No Other modern people in the Balkans or on this Planet are closer to them than todays modern Greeks.

Talk of direct Blood connections to any ancient group could be miscontrued with talking about "Purity" which could then be misconstrued as having affiliations to or with Nazism or Racism or even Facism which is something the Turkics and the SouthSlavs accuse the Greeks of doing, but on several occasions they actually reversed the roles...It is the FYRoMians that actually talk about direct Blood connections to the ancient Macedonians or to the ancient Thracians from antiquity!

Common sense dictates that in terms of blood/Dna connections, the peoples of Southeastern Europe would be closer to Alexander the Great than say Western Europeans, and if we continue with that type of logic, the Southern part of the Haemus [Balkan] Peninsula would be closer to them than the Northern part...Common sense would dictate that the people living South of the Jirecek line would be more connected to the ancient Macedonians/Thracians than those who reside North of the Jirecek line.

Todays Greeks really are the closest Living Breathing Walking Talking modern People to Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity.

Anonymous said...

The Whiteness of a Germanic or a Celtic or a Slavic means what exactly ???

The Germanics were forest dwellers, the Celts an earthy people and the Slavs, well what of the Slavs, each of these so called White races are what exactly ???

Lets not forget the Greeks gave us the word Evropi [Europe] A Europe without Greeks in it is not Europe at all...rather a conglomorate alliance of the descendents of forest dwellers, earthy people and Slavs!

I look at GrecoRoman people and I see a certain beauty to behold, I look at Germanics Celtics and Slavs...a Whiteness so dull in comparison to the GrecoRoman People!

Anonymous said...

The Greeks were cut down at a very significant moment in their evolutionary development...Had it not been for the Turk, the GrecoRoman people would have advanced to have dominated the European mind, body and soul.

The Byzantine empire [Eastern Roman Empire] destroyed by the Eastern Asiatic Oriental Musulman Turk, still resonates in the mindset of those European architects who's job it is to Terraform a political landscape which could support or at least incorporate such an entity on the continent of Europe in the modern era!

Wherever the Musulman Turk went, he destroyed civilisations and laid waste to centuries of human development and enlightenment.

Nothing good can be said of the musulman Turk, he is the most backward of all the eastern oriental asiatic races...so backward in his thoughts and the human development aspect.

Turkey has developed in leaps and bounds of late, but that is not due to the Turk, it is due to the fact that the Turkish race has been significantly diluted in order to allow the European Balkanian and Hebrew elements in it to dominate.

The Turk destroyed a civilization and a way of life which was a bastion of Greek thought wisdom and sapience, administered under a Roman system of juridiction, it endured for almost two Millenia.

The Turk inherited the best part of Europe and the most wealthiest part of Europe with a GrecoRoman population so enlightened, I mean so advanced in all of the sholarly and academic disciplines and within a short space of time...his governance over them, converted them and that Part of Europe into the the most Illiterate and poorest. Nothing good can be said of the Eastern Asiatic Oriental Turk.

The Modern Turk has developed in many ways but that is not due to his roots or his ethno-origins, it is due to the significant Cultural and Genetic Infusion from the peoples who's enlightenment he tried so hard to destroy!

The Modern Turk Looks back at himself and sees Not a Turk but a GrecoRoman or a Slav or a Herbrew or a Kurd or an Arab or an......

Turks have a long way to go before we could consider them to be European enough...Who, of the Europen races supported the Turk and watched him rise in the East to the detriment of Byzantium!

Anonymous said...

Nordic and Nordicist lowlife shits
are just that, lowlife pieces of shit in comparison to the people that gave us Athens Rome and Constantinopolis.

Nordic blond blue eyed gypsies are just that, lowlife gypsies, with blond hair and blue eyes, they do not compare in the aesthetic looks of the quintessential Mediterranean, the Greek Spanish or Italian look.

Anonymous said...

Only in the minds of some sick and twisted Nordic or Nordicist lowlife pieces of shit do they equate themselves to the ancient Hellenes when in reality they should equate themselves to the white mongols, the Avars and the Huns, their true ancestors

Anonymous said...

It wouldn't surprise me to learn that this site along with so many others one finds on the internet is administered by SlavoMongols of the FYROM variety.

TurkoSlavs deceptively disguised as Nordicist plebs, playing the white man in order to rubbish the Greeks on the worldwide web.

Anonymous said...

This site is definately affiliated with the Revisionist Pseudo-Historians and Specialist Propagandists of FYRoM and their Turkic friends...The Proof is the last two links they have provided
entitled:

Link 1...The Myth of Ethnic Purity
Link 2...Modern Greece:re-invention and pretension

Both sites above are FYRoM Propaganda sites.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslav SouthSlavs aided and abetted by their Turkic cousins like to play the White Man...They have hijacked the Nordic Nordicist agenda in order to denigrate the modern Greeks on the WorldWide Web!

Anonymous said...

True White people are the Albino types...If we refer to white people as Caucasian, then Greeks are just as white as any other but If we base Whiteness solely on skin colour, that would make Albino people the only true whites as the majority of European people are not actually really white, rather a blend of olive and off-white.

Anonymous said...

At one stage the Ango-Saxons considered the Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians and Swedes, as being generally of a swarthy Complexion, the Anglos considered themselves Supremo Alpha Whites...and then it all went pear shaped, darkness set in when Anglo women wrapped their legs around those swarthy gits.

Swarthiness crept into the Anglo-Saxon world through the back door...almost!

Anonymous said...

IndoEuropean is a linguistic term...when this word is used, it referes to a group of languages split between the Centum branch and the Satem branch.

The Greek Hellenic language belongs to the Centum branch of IndoEuropean languages.

FYRoM's supposed "Macedonian" language is Not real Macedonian, real Macedonian is the Greek Hellenic language. FYRoM's language is actually a hybrid mix of SerboBulgarian concocted in 1944
and presented to the outside world as "Macedonian" whilst Slavdoms academia Turned their heads at such Silliness.

FYRoM's SerboBulgarian language is Slavic language it belongs to the other side of the IndoEuropean language group...It belongs to the Satem side and Not really Macedonian as in the Greek sense of that word.

Is Greece IndoEuropean, was it ever......

Are Nordic people, Nordicist's thick...You decide!

Anonymous said...

Macedonians:Spawned From Hellenism or Slavdom

How absurd is the Name dispute between FYRoM and the Hellenic Republic...It is very absurd and very Pretentious because FYRoM's ex-Yugoslav SouthSlavs wanted to present themselves to the world as a Nation of "Macedonians" when clearly they are Not, at least Not in the Greek sense of that word.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are depicted in all of the reputable academic demographic journals as a Slavic people, they are placed into the SouthSlavic cluster...Ultimately they seen in the political sense and also in the ethnic/racial sense as belonging to the Slavic Collective of peoples.

Slavdom consider's FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs as SouthSlavs in exactly the same way the Turkic world considers Uzbeckistan
to be one of their own, another example, the Hellenic world consider Macedonians to be one of their own, Intrinsically connected to the Greek Hellenic Collective of peoples. There are many more examples, too numerous to list but as a last consideration, the Bavarians belong to No Other people group but the Germanic Collective of peoples, and so it can be seen how problematic and confusing it became when FYRoM
elected to Name itself Republic of Macedonia back in 1991 when they knew full well and in advance how the Hellenic Republic would react/respond to such a Pretentious move, and the Greeks did respond as predicted, hence the Name Dispute!

For the best part of almost a generation,the Greek Hellenic positions have remained constant, backed by world academia
and these worldly bodies/entities...The UN EU USA and Nato,
Greeks are seen to hold the Academic and the Moral higher ground precisely the reason why the Greeks are bolstered to persue a definative end to this absurd Name Dispute. The modern Greeks do have an obligation to protect and defend their hereditary and their recognized historic rights.
Greeks can Not recognize a Macedonian Identity which is Not Greek...hence, the Greeks would Never recognize FYRoM as a Macedonian country, where Macedonian speaking Macedonians live when it is known and clearly depicted in all of the reputable academic demographic journals that FYRoM is a Southlavic country with a Slavic speaking population.

And so it becomes Absurd for FYRoM to continue with it's
stance...Macedonians or a Nation of Macedonians outside of the Greek Hellenic Core has never existed in the past or even the ancient past, the Absurdity of creating one now, I mean to resurrect a Macedonian Nation which is Not Greek and which does Not belong to the Hellenic World is clearly Absurd...It could Not survive the rigours of an ethno-racial debate or the examination of a philological linguistic debate or the scrutiny of the demographic debate, not least the historical verity of it, bringing into existance a SouthSlavic country with Slavic speaking Macedonians is Tantamount to Mischief Making, a clear signal
that the Balkan region of Southeastern Europe shall remain in a constant state of Insecurity.

The Greeks shall Not Move or budge one Iota from their long established positions...The Onus is on FYRoM to take that Initiative and they are repeatedly told to do so. This year, the year 2011 shall see Slavdoms Academia mildly coerced to explain their positions regarding a SouthSlavic Macedonian language and whether it has any philogical basis in historical verity, Slavdoms academic fraternities shall have to explain many Inconsistencies regarding FYRoM, can Slavdoms academia really support the Idea that the original Macedonians were spawned from the Slavic Collective of peoples rather than the Hellenic Collective of peoples.

Anonymous said...

Macedonians:Spawned From Hellenism or Slavdom

How absurd is the Name dispute between FYRoM and the Hellenic Republic...It is very absurd and very Pretentious because FYRoM's ex-Yugoslav SouthSlavs wanted to present themselves to the world as a Nation of "Macedonians" when clearly they are Not, at least Not in the Greek sense of that word.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are depicted in all of the reputable academic demographic journals as a Slavic people, they are placed into the SouthSlavic cluster...Ultimately they seen in the political sense and also in the ethnic/racial sense as belonging to the Slavic Collective of peoples.

Slavdom consider's FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs as SouthSlavs in exactly the same way the Turkic world considers Uzbeckistan
to be one of their own, another example, the Hellenic world consider Macedonians to be one of their own, Intrinsically connected to the Greek Hellenic Collective of peoples. There are many more examples, too numerous to list but as a last consideration, the Bavarians belong to No Other people group but the Germanic Collective of peoples, and so it can be seen how problematic and confusing it became when FYRoM
elected to Name itself Republic of Macedonia back in 1991 when they knew full well and in advance how the Hellenic Republic would react/respond to such a Pretentious move, and the Greeks did respond as predicted, hence the Name Dispute!

For the best part of almost a generation,the Greek Hellenic positions have remained constant, backed by world academia
and these worldly bodies/entities...The UN EU USA and Nato,
Greeks are seen to hold the Academic and the Moral higher ground precisely the reason why the Greeks are bolstered to persue a definative end to this absurd Name Dispute. The modern Greeks do have an obligation to protect and defend their hereditary and their recognized historic rights.
Greeks can Not recognize a Macedonian Identity which is Not Greek...hence, the Greeks would Never recognize FYRoM as a Macedonian country, where Macedonian speaking Macedonians live when it is known and clearly depicted in all of the reputable academic demographic journals that FYRoM is a Southlavic country with a Slavic speaking population.

And so it becomes Absurd for FYRoM to continue with it's
stance...Macedonians or a Nation of Macedonians outside of the Greek Hellenic Core has never existed in the past or even the ancient past, the Absurdity of creating one now, I mean to resurrect a Macedonian Nation which is Not Greek and which does Not belong to the Hellenic World is clearly Absurd...It could Not survive the rigours of an ethno-racial debate or the examination of a philological linguistic debate or the scrutiny of the demographic debate, not least the historical verity of it, bringing into existance a SouthSlavic country with Slavic speaking Macedonians is Tantamount to Mischief Making, a clear signal
that the Balkan region of Southeastern Europe shall remain in a constant state of Insecurity.

The Greeks shall Not Move or budge one Iota from their long established positions...The Onus is on FYRoM to take that Initiative and they are repeatedly told to do so. This year, the year 2011 shall see Slavdoms Academia mildly coerced to explain their positions regarding a SouthSlavic Macedonian language and whether it has any philogical basis in historical verity, Slavdoms academic fraternities shall have to explain many Inconsistencies regarding FYRoM, can Slavdoms academia really support the Idea that the original Macedonians were spawned from the Slavic Collective of peoples rather than the Hellenic Collective of peoples.

Anonymous said...

Macedonians:Spawned From Hellenism or Slavdom

How absurd is the Name dispute between FYRoM and the Hellenic Republic...It is very absurd and very Pretentious because FYRoM's ex-Yugoslav SouthSlavs wanted to present themselves to the world as a Nation of "Macedonians" when clearly they are Not, at least Not in the Greek sense of that word.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are depicted in all of the reputable academic demographic journals as a Slavic people, they are placed into the SouthSlavic cluster...Ultimately they seen in the political sense and also in the ethnic/racial sense as belonging to the Slavic Collective of peoples.

Slavdom consider's FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs as SouthSlavs in exactly the same way the Turkic world considers Uzbeckistan
to be one of their own, another example, the Hellenic world consider Macedonians to be one of their own, Intrinsically connected to the Greek Hellenic Collective of peoples. There are many more examples, too numerous to list but as a last consideration, the Bavarians belong to No Other people group but the Germanic Collective of peoples, and so it can be seen how problematic and confusing it became when FYRoM
elected to Name itself Republic of Macedonia back in 1991 when they knew full well and in advance how the Hellenic Republic would react/respond to such a Pretentious move, and the Greeks did respond as predicted, hence the Name Dispute!

For the best part of almost a generation,the Greek Hellenic positions have remained constant, backed by world academia
and these worldly bodies/entities...The UN EU USA and Nato,
Greeks are seen to hold the Academic and the Moral higher ground precisely the reason why the Greeks are bolstered to persue a definative end to this absurd Name Dispute. The modern Greeks do have an obligation to protect and defend their hereditary and their recognized historic rights.
Greeks can Not recognize a Macedonian Identity which is Not Greek...hence, the Greeks would Never recognize FYRoM as a Macedonian country, where Macedonian speaking Macedonians live when it is known and clearly depicted in all of the reputable academic demographic journals that FYRoM is a Southlavic country with a Slavic speaking population.

And so it becomes Absurd for FYRoM to continue with it's
stance...Macedonians or a Nation of Macedonians outside of the Greek Hellenic Core has never existed in the past or even the ancient past, the Absurdity of creating one now, I mean to resurrect a Macedonian Nation which is Not Greek and which does Not belong to the Hellenic World is clearly Absurd...It could Not survive the rigours of an ethno-racial debate or the examination of a philological linguistic debate or the scrutiny of the demographic debate, not least the historical verity of it, bringing into existance a SouthSlavic country with Slavic speaking Macedonians is Tantamount to Mischief Making, a clear signal
that the Balkan region of Southeastern Europe shall remain in a constant state of Insecurity.

The Greeks shall Not Move or budge one Iota from their long established positions...The Onus is on FYRoM to take that Initiative and they are repeatedly told to do so. This year, the year 2011 shall see Slavdoms Academia mildly coerced to explain their positions regarding a SouthSlavic Macedonian language and whether it has any philogical basis in historical verity, Slavdoms academic fraternities shall have to explain many Inconsistencies regarding FYRoM, can Slavdoms academia really support the Idea that the original Macedonians were spawned from the Slavic Collective of peoples rather than the Hellenic Collective of peoples.

Anonymous said...

Macedonians:Spawned From Hellenism or Slavdom

How absurd is the Name dispute between FYRoM and the Hellenic Republic...It is very absurd and very Pretentious because FYRoM's ex-Yugoslav SouthSlavs wanted to present themselves to the world as a Nation of "Macedonians" when clearly they are Not, at least Not in the Greek sense of that word.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are depicted in all of the reputable academic demographic journals as a Slavic people, they are placed into the SouthSlavic cluster...Ultimately they seen in the political sense and also in the ethnic/racial sense as belonging to the Slavic Collective of peoples.

Slavdom consider's FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs as SouthSlavs in exactly the same way the Turkic world considers Uzbeckistan
to be one of their own, another example, the Hellenic world consider Macedonians to be one of their own, Intrinsically connected to the Greek Hellenic Collective of peoples. There are many more examples, too numerous to list but as a last consideration, the Bavarians belong to No Other people group but the Germanic Collective of peoples, and so it can be seen how problematic and confusing it became when FYRoM
elected to Name itself Republic of Macedonia back in 1991 when they knew full well and in advance how the Hellenic Republic would react/respond to such a Pretentious move, and the Greeks did respond as predicted, hence the Name Dispute!

For the best part of almost a generation,the Greek Hellenic positions have remained constant, backed by world academia
and these worldly bodies/entities...The UN EU USA and Nato,
Greeks are seen to hold the Academic and the Moral higher ground precisely the reason why the Greeks are bolstered to persue a definative end to this absurd Name Dispute. The modern Greeks do have an obligation to protect and defend their hereditary and their recognized historic rights.
Greeks can Not recognize a Macedonian Identity which is Not Greek...hence, the Greeks would Never recognize FYRoM as a Macedonian country, where Macedonian speaking Macedonians live when it is known and clearly depicted in all of the reputable academic demographic journals that FYRoM is a Southlavic country with a Slavic speaking population.

And so it becomes Absurd for FYRoM to continue with it's
stance...Macedonians or a Nation of Macedonians outside of the Greek Hellenic Core has never existed in the past or even the ancient past, the Absurdity of creating one now, I mean to resurrect a Macedonian Nation which is Not Greek and which does Not belong to the Hellenic World is clearly Absurd...It could Not survive the rigours of an ethno-racial debate or the examination of a philological linguistic debate or the scrutiny of the demographic debate, not least the historical verity of it, bringing into existance a SouthSlavic country with Slavic speaking Macedonians is Tantamount to Mischief Making, a clear signal
that the Balkan region of Southeastern Europe shall remain in a constant state of Insecurity.

The Greeks shall Not Move or budge one Iota from their long established positions...The Onus is on FYRoM to take that Initiative and they are repeatedly told to do so. This year, the year 2011 shall see Slavdoms Academia mildly coerced to explain their positions regarding a SouthSlavic Macedonian language and whether it has any philogical basis in historical verity, Slavdoms academic fraternities shall have to explain many Inconsistencies regarding FYRoM, can Slavdoms academia really support the Idea that the original Macedonians were spawned from the Slavic Collective of peoples rather than the Hellenic Collective of peoples.

Anonymous said...

Macedonians: Spawned from Hellenism Not from Nordicism.

Slavism and Turkism, both have tried very hard, both have tried their very best to graunch away, to detach the ancient Macedonians away from the rest of the Greeks, but what have they really achieved ???

The Slavic World and the Turkic World have Exposed themselves for what they really are, they have revealed to the world their love for Revisionism and Pseudo-History where the former, the Slav, has Scripted himself a History so Crude and so Crass where the Slavs leapfrog back into the ancient past as ancient Veneti people and SerboBulgarian speaking Macedonians...This is how Slavic Revisionist Pseudo-Historians see themselves!

The latter, the Turkics, well they have Scripted themselves a History just as Crude and just as Crass, in their Pseudo-History they leapfrog back into the ancient past, Not as Turkics but as Etruscans and Trojans...This is how the Turkic Revisionist Pseudo-Historians see themselves in their Warped and Perverted Minds.

Slavic and Turkic Warped Minds, Sick and Twisted Slavic and Turkic Minds have Brainwashed their Youth Beyond Repair!

Europe keeps them at arms length...at a distance where they belong. When Europe assigns and attributes the ancient Greeks with the founding of the Arts and the Sciences, and most of the other academic and scholarly disciplines...Slavics and Turkics sift and search the historical archives in order to find articles which discredit the ancient Greeks, they would much rather praise NoN Europeans than to see the Greeks accreditted with them.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslav SouthSlavs aided and abbetted by the Turkics are the Only people in Europe to divert away from this long established practice where ancient Greeks were praised for their inquisitiveness and their abilities in the academic field for the pursuit of all universal knowledge.

Anonymous said...

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslav SouthSlavs would have us believe that they are somehow more "Macedonian" than the Macedonians of the Hellenic Republic, they have Inappropriately named their country Republic of Macedonia so that should entitle them to a Macedonian Identity which ought to be recognized Internationally, their mindset goes like this: I am a Macedonian because I live in a country called Macedonia and I speak the Macedonian language...When it is pointed out to them that their country is really Paeonia and their Slavic language is really SerboBulgarian, Not really Macedonian, they clam up, unable to accept it...too much Information Overload, so they blank it out but the reality is, they are Not Macedonians, at least Not in the Greek sense of that word. The Hellenic Republic holds the academic and the moral high ground...Greece has never used propaganda in the name dispute fiasco with FYRoM. The Hellenic Republic has only ever used logic and common sense plus it's timeserved Greek wisdom and sapience, utilizing the Intellectual capacity of world academia it's main tool and preferred method for combating FYRoM's Silliness.

Todays Greeks are the real deal, they can prove it linguistically and culturally, they can go even further by proving a biological genealogical compatibility with previous generations of Greeks. Modern Greeks can prove that they are just as Greek as any of the ancient Greeks and that Includes Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity.
[link to www.ddl.ish-lyon.cnrs.fr]
Page5 Map4 The Evidence is Overwhelming!

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslav SouthSlavs are Not Macedonian in the Greek sense of that word...To be Macedonian is to be Greek or derived from Greek Hellenic stock. There are many Greeks today that have lost their Greekness, they go by many other names than the Greek name, nevertheless they all reside in those same places where the ancient Greeks dwelt. The ancient Greek genetic geography, footprint and genetic signature has been Mapped by the worlds leading academic on Genes People and Languages!

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs should ReHellenize and return back to the fold, If they want Alexander the Great for their ancestor...The Hellenic element is the Main Ingrediant in real authentic Macedonians. Real Macedonians remain loyal to Hellenism, Proud to have retained that [Greek] language and that [Hellenic] culture which ultimately connects them back to that civilization and to that campaign their ancestor's initiated in order to expand [Hellenism], the Greek Hellenic Language Knowledge and Culture to the furthestmost points of the then known world.

Anonymous said...

Since FYRoM's inception, modern Greeks have seen their national character ridiculed and their heritage rubbished, every Greek hating man and his dog joined in the bandwagon backing the FYRoM cause. FYRoM's anti-Hellenic crusade attracted Sponsors and Propagandists, near, far and wide, from Nordicists and Afrocentrists to Revisionists and Pseudo-Historians...Modern Greeks endured a barrage and an onslaught of scolding vituperation on their Greekness based on virulently misleading, biased information regarding their genealogy and anthroplogy, designed and developed to distance modern Greeks from their ancestral Hellenic base.

Greeks are by nature very durable people, they have an enduring quality about them, an inherited trait, an easily discernable characteristic passed down from the ancient Hellenes who's dominance and resiliance over lesser peoples cultures enabled theirs to spread then expand to the furthestmost regions of the then known world.

So Modern Greeks can compare their qualities to those of the ancients, modern Greeks can see the comparisons and this empowers them with a sense of continuity above and beyond that of philology. Todays Greeks are the sole and legal modern representatives of the Hellenic legacy which Includes Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity. No other modern people in the Balkans or on this planet are closer to the ancient Hellenes than todays modern Greeks.

Todays Greeks have a legal and moral obligation to protect and defend Hellenism...custodians of a legacy so rich in pagentry and regalia and who's heritage and culture is held in such esteem, the history of the Hellenes is still admired and studied at the best universities all over the world.

Anonymous said...

Alexander the Great was the Greek Hellenic King of Macedon, he was not Nordic German or Scanda, he was Greek Hellene because he walked like a Greek and he talked like a Greek. NoN Greeks wanting him for their ancestor...well, they are being rather pretentious aren't they and a tad Silly wouldn't you say, because the Hellenic element is the main Ingrediant in the making of a Greek Hellene.

Alexander the Great was definately a Greek Hellenic King, we know for sure because foreign people told us...from the ancient Persians to the ancient Hebrews and from the ancient Egyptians to the ancient Hindus, they all said it, in fact wherever Alexander went, foreigners hailed him as the Greek Hellenic King of Macedon.

But why do foreigners want him for their ancestor...???

Well, not all foreigners do want him for their ancestor, it is only the SouthSlavs from the ex-Yugoslavia who profess to have developed collective memories and deep emotional feelings for Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity, only they call him Aleksandar Veliki...a Proto-Slav, their first Great Czar!

So it becomes obvious where this is going...The distance between Slavs and Alexander the Great can be measured in the hundreds of miles and in the difference between the Satem and Centum branches of the IndoEuropean language tree
but the greatest distance and the most significant is the time dimension...The Slavic Tribes were nowhere near the ancient Greek world of the Hellenistic period, they were far far away. Slavs are distanced from Hellenes:

1...In Philology/Linguistics [[Satem][Centum]]
2...In Geography [[Asian Steppes][Haemus Peninsula]]
3...In Time Dimension [[Justinian A.D.][Hellenistic B.C.]]

Quite how FYRoM's ex-Yugoslav SouthSlavs managed to develop these supposed feelings for ancient Greeks is for Slavdom to unravel, modern Greeks are Not to blame for this!

Todays Greeks are the Custodians of the Hellenic legacy, a language and a civilization which is still admired in the modern era, the ancient Greeks and their achievements are still held in high esteem by Europeans and others, it is for this reason modern Greeks shall continue to defend and protect what is theirs by historic and hereditary right.

Anonymous said...

Macedonia:From Antiquity and Beyond

Since the forming of the Hellenes, a collection of 230 known
groups tribes and kingdoms bound together in common speech and common genus, who's culture and traditions so resiliant and so dominant...Other, lesser cultures willingly and voluntarily succumbed to Hellenisms superior elements.

Macedonians...Just one of many Greek Hellenic groups tribes and kingdoms:
http://my.raex.com/~obsidian/soubalk2.html
The northern verge of Hellas, a relatively less populated area, containing peoples and cultures considered by most Classic Hellenes to be little better than barbarians. Yet, these northerners have contributed some of the most notable features of the Greek historical and mythological landscape. Here will be found the Macedonians and Thracians, the Epirotes and Thessalians. Here also is located Mount Olympus itself.

Macedonians have always been Greek Hellenic people, right from the time they first learned to read and write they actually told us they were Greeks in ways which resonate and are still apparent even up till today, they were Greeks and nothing else...Just Greeks!

About the forming of the Greeks [Hellenes]

The title of this section is The Greeks, and not Greece, since from the mythical days of the Argonauts to the present, neither the peninsula of Hellas nor Ionia and the Aegean Islands have been large enough to hold the far-wandering Hellenes. Greek is a language and a civilization, the Greeks a people; the Greeks are the descendants of all the peoples who have adopted and retained that language and that civilization from classical times to the present. Some of these converts to Hellenicism were inhabitants of Asia Minor, others of Thrace and Byzantium, others of the lands bordering the Black Sea, especially the Crimea.

Into the peninsula of Greece itself, many thousands of Slavs wandered as immigrants during the maximum South Slavic expansion; the Turks brought colonists, including many Albanians, and whole districts of Boeotia and Attica and of other parts of Greece are today Albanian speaking. Romance-speaking shepherds, the Vlachs, have also made the slopes of the Pindus their seasonal pastures. Since the World War many of the Greeks living in Thrace and Asia Minor have been sent to Greek soil to live, while Turks and other Moslems have been in turn repatriated. Despite these attempts at producing ethnic order, much Greek territory, especially in Macedonia, remains ethnically heterogeneous. Furthermore, the number of Greeks who live abroad, be it in Egypt, East Africa, or in the New World, is so great that the Greeks are still almost an international people. Many of the Greeks leave home to make their fortunes on less stony soil, but many of them also return.

It is inaccurate to say that the modern Greeks are different physically from the ancient Greeks; such a statement is based on an ignorance of the Greek ethnic character. In classical times the Greeks included many kinds of people living in different places, as they do today. If one refers to the inhabitants of Attica during the sixth century, or to the Spartans of Leonidas, then the changes in these localities have probably not been nearly as great as that between the Germans of Tacitus and the living South Germans, to cite but a single example.
http://carnby.altervista.org/troe/12-14.htm

Macedonians have always been Greek Hellenic people...Integral to the Greek Hellenic Collective of Peoples. Macedonians are Greek and Nothing Else...Just Greeks!

Anonymous said...

Macedonia...according to FYRoM's rogue scholars, pseudo-historians and specialist propagandists is a place where the primordial Makedonoid were spawned and from them the genesis of the white race of which, the proto-Slavs were the first aryan beings to set foot and inhabit this planet.

The Makedonoid dwelt in the lands of Macedonia, a place where only the sun is older, where only Macedonians could be found and if you were lucky enough to find one, they appeared tall blond and beautiful, typically Slavic and typically aryan.

From the Makedonoid genetic pool sprang the white race, the ancient tribes of the Aegean and of the Haemus peninsula, and of Asia Minor and of Anatolia but it doesn't stop there...from the Makedonoid sprang all the white races from the Balkans in the west all the way to the Japanese sea in the east.

So the various white races actually owe their beginnings, their genesis and their ethno-origins to the Slavs of FYRoM, only they have the right to claim legitimately, custodianship of the Makedonoid legacy, afterall they are the modern heirs and inheritors of the primordial Makedonoid the first aryans on this planet.

Since antiquity, the inhabitants of FYRoM have always called themselves Makedonci and they have always spoken the Makedonski Sloveni language. The Makedonoid have always been Makedonci, right from the start and the very beginning, since time Immemorial!

Only a hardened propagandist or a severely brainwashed Individual would equate FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs to the ancient peoples of Macedonia. Slavdoms rogue scholars pseudo-historians and specialist propagandists have focused on ancient European history and deliberately elected to rubbish the history and heritage of the Greek Hellenic people, they have converted classical history into vulgar pseudo-history and this is unnacceptable to modern Greeks and to classicist scholars and all of these world bodies:

The UN, EU, USA, Nato and World Academia!

For Greeks and the International community...It has become excruciatingly painful having to listen to FYRoM's ethnically engineered Macedonians talking about their SerboBulgarian speaking proto-Slavic Macedonian ancestors.

Slavdoms scholarly elite have an academic responsibility to correct the mistakes of the past, it is their duty, they have a moral obligation to properly Inform and enlighten the Slavic people of FYRoM about their real roots and ethno-origins, about who they really are and where they really come...The Greeks are Not to blame for FYRoM's ethnically engineered, manipulated, Indoctrinated view of themselves, they are Not Macedonians in the Greek sense of that word and it is about time they heard it from a reputable Slavic academic source.

Slavdoms Academia can Not sit on the fence Indefinately, they must commit themselves to their academic vows...the pursuit of all universal knowledge rooted to historical verity.

Anonymous said...

Macedonia:So Who Are The Macedonians

Macedonians are northern Greeks...The northernmost Greek Hellenic people, the ones that can trace their history back in backwards compatible fashion to the Balkan Wars from where they emerged victorious and which enabled them to eject the oriental musulman Turk from Macedonian soil, but these Macedonians can trace their history back even further to the Imperial Byzantine Empire, who's Theme of Macedonia had to be relocated to a safe area known today as Bulgaria in order to protect them from barbarian attacks and assaults.

Macedonians are the Greeks who can boast the closest possible connection to Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity, in geography in language and in kinship, the closest modern people on this planet to the original Macedonians who were an aggressive and turbulent folk of Hellenic stock, responsible for one of the world's great empires, they were just one of the 230 ancient Greek Hellenic groups tribes and kingdoms known to academics and classicist scholars.

The ancient Macedonians Inhabited the northern extremity of the Greek Hellenic world. The Greek northern frontier was protected and defended by the ancient Macedonians.

The ancient Macedonians protected Greece from barbarian invasions incursions and attacks, they learned new military skills and they used that military power to take over and Govern Greece as leaders of a unified Nation of Hellenes.

The ancient Macedonians under Alexander the Great unified the fractious Greeks into one unified Nation and then proceeded to expand Hellenism by spreading the Greek language knowledge and culture to the far reaches of the known world, but how do we know all this...we know because it was written down and recorded for posterity, as if the ancient Macedonians knew that one day, far off into the distant future their Greekness might be questioned, so they took out an Insurance policy.....

Wherever the ancient Macedonians went, they left their "Calling Card" carved deep into stones and building blocks of every city the built visited or renamed...Real Macedonians are those Greek people that have remained loyal to Hellenism, Proud to have retained that [Greek] language and that [Hellenic] culture which ultimately connects them back to that civilization and to that campaign their ancestor's Initiated in order to expand Hellenism, the Greek Hellenic Language, Knowledge and Culture to the furthestmost regions of the then known world.

Anonymous said...

It is a fact that you have no brain... What a waste of time your post is! Get a life!

Anonymous said...

Fakn Turks and TurkoSlavs, they started this blogg posing as white nordics...Fakn Turks!

Turks are Ignorant Abrasive and Arrogant

Just like their Eastern and Asian, Oriental Musulman ancestors!

The Turk was good only in numbers, only when every single Asiatic tribe was along side him did he ever consider facing the Greek!

The Greek was the only European to Fight the Turk eyball to eyeball...I mean, Face to Face!

The Turk still has a collective memory of the Greek staring into his Face in battle!

The Greek waits patiently for next occasion when he shall have the oppertunity to Face the Turk, but this time, Just Mehmetin Turk himself, without the assistance of his Musulman brothers!

The Greek shall Face that Turk in remembrance of the fallen Greeks, the ones that fell facing Mehmetins Musulman hoards!

We owe the Turk!

And I want to finish that business!

Anonymous said...

I've been to Scandanavia (most) and it is quite true, the mongoloid element is there, at least to those of us that can discern it in anthropological terms.

Simply put, some nordic people are white mongols, thats what they are, blond blue eyed white mongols.

Nordics, in simple terms are a blend of Turkics and Germanics where the whiteness and blondism of the Germanics meet the oriental features and characteristics of the Turkic tribes in all their facial spleandour.

Anonymous said...

yeah i get it now, sort of like Genghiz meets Fritz kind of situation

Anonymous said...

The lengths to which these Turkics and Slavics are prepared to go to, in order to badmouth the Greeks is astonishing. I say:

Long live the Greek-Hellenic people...long live Hellas!

The demise of the Greeks is anticipated, more so by the Slavics and the Turkics who between them plot and scheme together in common cause to see the Greeks go down, they anticipate the end of Hellas and the Greek-Hellenic people by 2013...apparently, this is how it is written in their pseudo-scriptures!

The pleasure FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs get at watching Greeks falter is apparent and self evident. I say:

Long live Hellas...long live the Greek-Hellenic people!

Wherever Hellenism goes...Greeks shall Follow

Should Hellenism falter...Greeks shall Amend

If Hellenism Stumbles and Falls...Greeks shall Revive

Evropi is Not Evropi without Hellas...The concept of a Europe is a Greek one!

In the face of adversity the Greeks make a stand, they stare into the face of their impending doom comfortable in the knowledge that change is in the air, the wind of change shall sweep over Hellas...some of that change will undoubtably affect the neighbourhood, for better or for worse, change is coming. I say:

Long live Hellas...Long live the Greek-Hellenic people!

Anonymous said...

When all is said and done...Macedonians remain as Greek as the Spartans.

No Slavist, No Turanid revisionist pseudo-historian can alter that fact...that academic reference point.

Between them...I mean between the Slavist and the Turanid, this union, this alliance against Hellenism has produced a TurkoSlav so Ignorant, so Arrogant and so Abrassive, no amount of Integration into the European family can make the TurkoSlav respect Hellenic Ideals and core values, the foundation stones on which western civilization is based.

Hellenism to the TurkoSlav means little and counts for nothing...for him, I mean the TurkoSlav, his aim in life is to alter European history in order to include the TurkoSlav, to make it more TurkoSlavic, to make ancient Macedonians Slavics and to make ancient Trojans Turkics, this is what that Slavist-Turanid union, that alliance is all about!

Anonymous said...

Greeks have witnessed attempts to assasinate their national character...Greeks have also witnessed attempts to rubbish their national history and Greeks have also witnessed Hellenism, the foundation stone of Western Civilization being denigrated...but who is behind this anti-Hellenic, anti-Western [charade] movement!

Well, this is what we know so far......

Afolabi is an African revisionist Pseudo-Historian!

Mehmetin is a Turanid revisionist Pseudo-Historian!

Goran is a Slavist revisionist Pseudo-Historian!

What do Afolabi Mehmetin and Goran have in Common...easy, they are all extremely anti-Hellenic anti-Western Afro-Turanid-Slavist revisionist pseudo-historians!

Do their Opinions mean anything...No, they don't!

Afolabis opinions mean little and count for Nothing!

Mehmetins opinions mean little and count for Nothing!

Gorans opinions mean little and count for Nothing!

Afro-Blacks Turanid-Mongols and Slavist-TurkoSlavs...want to rewrite the ancient history of Europe in order to take some of it away from the Greeks and Hellenism and instead, give to the Afro-Afolabi and the Turanid-Mehmetin and the Slavist-Goran!

Western Civilization is under attack by Afro-Blacks Turanid-Mongols and Slavist-TurkoSlavs...aided and abetted by western media.

Greeks as always...defend and protect Hellenism, it's time for the West to share in that burdern. The Greek is Proud of his ancestral heritage, he give Nothing to Afolabi Mehmetin or Goran...Instead, the Greek shall squeeze the PiPs out their Afro-Turanid-Slavist Silliness!

Anonymous said...

Martin Bernal...AfroCentrist aka Afolabi!

Mustafa Kemel Ataturk...Turanid aka Mehmetin!

Victor Friedman...Slavist aka Goran!

What do these seemingly unrelated peoples all have in Common ???

Anonymous said...

Blacks Mongols and TurkoSlavs...All Team-up together to denigrate Hellenism, the foundation stone of Western Civilazation!

The realization that Greeks alone should not have to bear that Indignation has finally dawned on some Western Powers...

...Western Civilization owes Hellenism, it's now time for the West to show Afolabi Mehmetin and Goran what the West thinks about Afrocentrists, Turanid and Slavist revisionist pseudo-historians.

Afolabi Mehmetin and Goran beware...You just Pissed-Off the West!

Anonymous said...

As a culture, Hellenism has proven to be dominant and resiliant, just when it appears to be fading away something happens only for it to bounce back...Hellenism, it's Ideals and Core values have been adopted by the West, it is the corner stone and the foundation on which Western civilization is based, but is it under attack and has been for quite some time, systematic and sustained attack in order to bring it down, and if that was to be achieved, Western civilization would also fall, to be replaced with something else...but what would replace Hellenism or Western civilization ???

Afrocentric revisionism accentuated an African origin for the early development of Hellenic enlightenment...Martin Bernal promulgated his assertions in his book entitled Black Athena.

Whether he was aware of it or not, Martin Bernal became responsible for Indoctrinating Black people into a false premise, inticing Black people of African origins into a belief that proto-Greeks were Blacks from Africa. Martin Bernal has since gone on record to extenuate what he started, to lessen the Blackness of his assertion in order to heighten the Egyptian influence on early Hellenic enlightenment.

By doing what he Bernal did especially when he did, smacks of something resembling character assassination tactics. By designating early Hellenic enlightenment to African origins, he not only humiliated the Greeks but also the Egyptians,
because Black Africans hold Bernal to account, his words resonate amongst Black Africans who see the mythical Black Afolabi as being the donor of knowledge wisdom and enlightenment to the early Egyptian civilization which onward transmitted to the Hellenic.

What Martin Bernal started, enabled every Greek hating man and his dog to jump on the Afrocentric bandwagon at a time when Greece was being pressed to accept a road map for the development of energy routs in the Balkan peninsula...Western mind-architects had visions of a fragmented peninsula litterd with little Balkan statelets quarelling over disputes dating back centuries.

Martin Bernal in affiliation with Victor A Friedman, a prominant Slavist, attempt to belittle Hellenism, the foundation stone on which Western civilization is based.

Martin Bernal, Victor A Friedman and prominant Turanid revisionist pseudo-historians ridicule and humiliate Hellenism at every opportunity, and by the virtue of default, Western civilization also, as if there is a concerted effort to replace Hellenism with something else on which global order could be based, in essence expanding the confine to which Western civilization is currently restricted to.

Disolving the resentment other cultures harbour towards the West for the sake of trade and commerce and influence could only come about with the collapse of Hellenism and by virtue of default, the West, in order to fascilitate some perverted mind-architects commercial dreams.

Anonymous said...

Greeks should not have to defend and protect the virtues of Western civilization alone, the West should play it's part too. Hellenism is under attack...Afrocentric propaganda, Turanid propaganda and Slavist propaganda seek to bring down the West by bringing down Hellenism first, the corner stone and the foundation on which Western civilization is based. Greece has been Torched and Flooded with every Afro-Asiatic Musulmanic Tribe known to man, they somehow find their way to Greece by land, sea and air.

If Hellenism falls, so does the West...Western civilization is tinkering on the brink, the sheer weight of extremist Afrocentric, Turanid and Slavist anti-Hellenic propaganda seeks to undermine Western democracy by questioning the very fabric of it's Ideals and Core Values, the very fundamentals on which it is based.

Afolabi, Mehmetin and Goran team-up to denigrate Hellenism, so Greeks are forced to defend and protect their history and their heritage from those perverted distortions which attempt to take from Greeks, elements of their cultural heritage in order to present them to the outside world as something other than Greek...Afrocentrists Turanids and Slavists do this, so I am here to challenge Afolabi, Mehmetin and Goran.

Anonymous said...

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs can not possibly be Macedonian because the element of legacy is missing, nothing from the original Macedonians has been passed on to them...as a SouthSlavic peoples they are not backwards compatible to the original product and I use that word advisedly!!

Like firmware [software] is upgraded to better versions, the latest updated version, must still be compatible, I mean backwards compatible to the original product...legacy!

This analogy could be used to expose FYRoM's distinct lack of affinity to the original product, the legacy element is missing, yet FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs persist in their wanton use of the Macedonian name without having prior or previous adjacency to it!

Like firmware is continuously updated and made better, so to are human beings, I mean, todays version of human beings are better made, more robust, more adaptable and much more knowledgable than previous versions...

...in fact, todays humans can do much much more than any of their predecessors ever could, but still, that legacy element and that backwards compatibility element is still applicable.

In FYRoM's case, there are no legacy elements for them to refer to, and neither can they boast backward compatibility to the original [product] Macedonians, I mean, they are neither ethnic-racial, cultural or linguistically compatible to the original Macedonians, yet they use that name for their new country, their nationality, their language and their ethnicity...how could they usurp a Greek-Hellenic name that can be traced back, in bakward compatible fashion to the original Macedonians of antiquity, who were a Greek speaking Hellenic people!

Todays Greeks are the latest version, the most up to date version of Greek, and in that package are Macedonians along with other add-ons and new features...Todays Greeks are a Licensed Product, the Real deal...

...FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are not Macedonian, it is not possible for them to get Licensed, they No fit the criteria of backward compatibility to the original product because they are a Fake Product, a Cheap Copy of the original.

Todays Greeks = Legacy Built In, Compatible to the Original Product!

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs = No Guarantee! No Return! Fake Product! You get what you paid for type of thing!

Anonymous said...

Human rights and the rights of modern people to self-express as they wish is no longer considered viable or even appropriate, in the face of strong academic arguments favouring the rights of those autochthonous peoples who have been using that Macedonian name on a continuous basis since time immemorial!!!

Macedonians already Exist....They are Greeks.

Logic and common sense dictate that human rights exist for everyone...FYRoM's ex-YugoSlavs wanting to Identify themselves as just Macedonians based on supposed feelings for Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity, should prepare themselves for disapointment.

FYRoM's ex-YugoSlavs declaring themselves as just "Macedeonian" is problematic and confusing, Macedonians already exist, they are Greeks and they have rights also.

FYRoM's ex-YugoSlavs must differentiate themselves from Greeks and Hellenism by using a Prefix-Suffix in their New Name...something like Slov-Macedonia or Slav-Macedonia!

The Slov-Slav Interchange is known about, it is in use today, a precedent has already been set by:

1...Slovenia could so easily be called Slavenia. 2...Slovakia could so easily be called Slavakia.

So FYRoM using the argument concerning other Slav countries not being asked to use the word "Slav" in order to Identify themselves is a lie, because the words Slov and Slav are Interchangable.

FYRoM's New Name could be Slov-Macedonia if they do not like Slav-Macedonia!

Etnnicity, Language and Nationality...Greeks No Permit NoN-Greek People to Adopt-Usurp the Greek Regional-Tribal Name of Macedonia in order that FYRoM's ex-YugoSlavs could use it for their new country.

Macedonia(n) for Ethnic use, Language use, or Nationality use requires a pre-condition...the user of that name must be Greek or derived from Greeks, it's as simple as that!

Anonymous said...

Afrocentrists Tried It and Failed! Turanids Tried It and Failed! Slavists Tried It and Failed!

Hellenism,the corner stone and the very foundation on which Western Civilization is based remains intact, in fact it remains dominant and resiliant, even after several attempts at burning Greece and flooding Greece with every single Afro-Musulmanic Tribe and Asiatic-Musulmanic Tribe known to mankind.

Hellenism remains upstanding and fighting back.

Greeks should not have to do that alone...Western Civilization owes Greeks the very fabric of their being.

I say fight back...Fight Afrocentrists Turanids and Slavists, Afolabi Mehmetin and Goran live with us in the West but denigrate it's Ideals and core Values.

Time to defend and protect Hellenism, the corner stone and the very foundation on which Western Civilization is based...If Greece keels over, so does the West!

ΙΩΝ said...

WTF???? indo-europeans? Are you guys belive this propaganda? Indo-europeans never existed.

Anonymous said...

The message is clear...Macedonians have always been Greek-Hellenic people. Afolabi Mehmetin and Goran must simply stomach this fact, this academic reference point and carry on with their respective African, Turkic and Slavic existence. Afrocentrists Turanids and Slavists fought Hellenism and Hellenism Won!

Greece is situated in a part of the world which spawned Hellenism, yet in modern times is surrounded by Turkic and Slavic countries who, for them...Hellenism means little and counts for nothing!

African Afolabis, Turanid Mehmetins and Slavist Gorans think their opinions count or mean something...they don't, Africans, Turkics and Slavics can think what they like, the West No Care what these three anti-Hellenic, anti-Western revisionist pseudo-historians think!

I say...Keep Afolabi Mehmetin and Goran OUT!

Anonymous said...

Macedonians have always been Greek-Hellenic people, this is a fact, a reference point which has served the International academic community well.

1...Afrocentrists confuse Afolabi Africans with their revisionism and pseudo-history...as If Africans had anything to do with ancient Greeks or the early development of Hellenism.

2...Turanids confuse Mehmetin Turkics with their revisionism and pseudo-history...as If Turkics had anything to do with ancient Greeks or the early develoment of Hellenism.

3...Slavists confuse Goran Slavics with their revisionism and pseudo-history...as If Slavics had anything to do with ancient Greeks or the early development of Hellenism.

Africans, Turks and Slavs attempt to denigrate Hellenism...they have started something deep and it shall bite them in a bad way. Western Civilization in general and Western Europe in particular have only now realized the Value of Hellenism, the very fabric of their being and the basis on which Western Civilization continues...Hellenism is the West's adopted culture of choice. Hellenism for the West is worth keeping, I mean protecting and defending.

...What the Africans have to Offer the West Reject!

...What the Turanids have to Offer the West Reject!

...What the Slavists have to Offer the West Reject!

Hellenism is a culture way of life which has endured for Millenia, the West shall defend and protect it...Come Hell or High Water!

Anonymous said...

Macedonia:Hellenism and Western Civilization

Afrocentric Mehmeto-Goranic Indoctrinated SouthSlavs...thats what they are, I mean FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs prefer the revisionism and the pseudo-history of the Afrocentrists and of the Turanids and ofcourse their own, home-grown Slavist revisionism and pseudo-history to the long established mainstream historical record.

TurkoSlavic Afrocentrists denigrate Hellenism in the full gaze of the International academic community...taking from the Greeks, elements of their Hellenic cultural heritage and trying to pass it off as either African Turkic or Slavic.

Shameless Afolabi Mehmeto-Goranic Indoctrinated TurkoSlavic Afrocentrists!

I say...keep them OUT!

Anonymous said...

Without Hellenism there would be No supranational culture common to Western Civilization...just Afrocentric Turanid and Slavist Theories Ideas and Conjectures where Africans Turkish and Slavists compete for a slice of the ancients heritage.

The African Afrocentrists see elements of themselves in ancient Greeks...for them, I mean the Afrocentrists, the Greeks had African origins so Afolabi the African Afrocentist denigrates Hellenism in his African Afrocentric sort of way.

The Turkic Turanids see elements of themselves in ancient Greeks...for them, I mean the Turanids, the Greeks had Turan origins so Mehmetin the Turanid denigrates Hellenism in his Turkic Turanid sort of way.

The Slavic Slavists see elements of themselves in
ancient Greeks...for them, I mean the Slavists, the Greeks had Slavic origins so Goran the Slavist denigrates Hellenism in his Slavist sort of way.

Shameless Africans Turkics and Slavics...

What do Afolabi Mehmetin and Goran have to do with ancient Greeks and Hellenism...Shameless little Gits!

Anonymous said...

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs call themselves Macedonians but that is inconsistant and incompatible with what is known about them...I mean, the original Macedonians were recorded as a Greek-Hellenic people.

FYRoM's use of that Macedonian name flies in the face of historical verity...they are Not Greeks, so they can not possibly be Macedonians, at least not in the Greek sense of that word.

To be Macedonian, I mean, to be an authentic Macedonian, one has to be of Greek-Hellenic stock or at least be derived from them.

Greeks No take kindly to foreign people taking elements from their Hellenic cultural heritage and presenting them to the outside world as their own. Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity belong to Hellenism and the Greeks...Not to Slavdom and the Slavs.

Afrocentrists, Turanids and Slavists have all but brainwashed their own respective peoples into revisionism and pseudo-history, (i) Africans (ii) Turks and (iii) Slavs
are walking around today with the Idea that Greeks dont exist, they expired a long time ago, but If that were true, how does it detract from the facts and the academic reference points that the original Macedonians were Greeks to begin with. Alexander the Great would still be Greek if there were No Greeks around today to claim his legacy. I mean, history has recorded it that way, right!

If there were No Greeks around today, historians would still have placed Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity into the Greek Hellenic domain.

Interpretations of ancient text make it clear that ancient Macedonians considered themselves Greek. As soon as they were able to express themselves, they told us in their writings they were Greeks. The original Macedonians spoke of their Greeksness in oral form and in written form...in their own Macedonian language which was a Greek-Hellenic language, an IndoEuropean language belonging to the Centum group of IndoEuropean languages.

Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity however, were not refined Greeks, they were rough and ready Greeks, frontier Greeks, unrefined Northerners.

Southern Greeks sometimes considered them "barbarian" in the ancient Greek sense of that word meaning unintelligible speech, they spoke a different dialect of Greek which made Macedonians sound a tad different in comparison to the quintessential Athenian Greek standard.

It must be said...If there were No Greeks around today, Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity would still have been recorded as Greek-Hellenic people in the annals of our common European history book.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are precisely that...SouthSlavs beyond a shadow of a doubt, they are Not Macedonians, at least Not in the Greek sense of that word.

Anonymous said...

FYRoM's Canadian diaspora numbers aproximately 35k and the Australian diaspora approximately 85k...they did alot of damage considering their small number abroad. They were left to wallow in their own nostalgia within the confines of their own communities but nothing they said or did was referenced to long established facts and academic reference points.

Their influence in formulating FYRoM's historical narrative played only a small role overall, most of the revisionist pseudo-history elements were already there, outside the FYRoM kernal and more into the shell of what was once Yugoslavia, it appears to have been quite pervasive throughout the Slavic speaking Balkans at variant degrees of fervid obstinacy.

FYRoM's Canadian Slavs and FYRoM's Australian Slavs took with them, Balkan baggage which Canada and Australia evidently, have been unsuucessful in filtering-flushing out.

FYRoM's Slavs abroad live inside Western Anglo-Saxon countries...These Western countries base their Civilization on Hellenic Ideals and Core Values, they adopted Hellenism for the own culture of choice which must be very uncomfortable for a SouthSlav Indoctrinated into revisionism and pseudo-history!!

Anonymous said...

New Turkistanis are being bred for purpose...to spread Turanid revisionism into Europe. The first country in Europe to adopt this New Turkistani doctrine is FYRoM!

FYRoM willingly and voluntarily absorbs Turanid culture, themes and synergies which they adopt as their own.

Mehmeto-Goranic culture has also been adopted by the Afolabis of Africa...In the world today, we have witnessed Afrocentric Mehmeto-Goranic culture taking root...a New civilization being formed in it's early development, soon to compete with the long established Western one!

Anonymous said...

The ancient Greeks were accredited with laying down the corner-stone and the ground-work on which Western civilization is based.

Hellenism, it's Ideals and Core Values have been adopted by the West willingly and voluntarily but what are these Hellenic Ideals and Core Values...Humanism, Idealism and Rationalism were important factors for ancient Greeks but there are more:

1...Freedom
2...Democracy
3...Indivisualism
4...Self-Reliance
5...Seeking, being guided by Truth
6...Seeking, Ideal perfect beauty
7...Ethics and Standards
8...Education in all academic disciplines

Western Europeans see elements of themselves in ancient Greeks, that is why the concept of being descended from them is such a powerful one.

Modern Greeks, when compared to the ancient Greeks are found lacking, but then I ask myself, who in the modern age can compare with them...Germans, Slavs, Celts, who!

From since the forming of the modern Hellenic Nation State, the Greeks have yet to celebrate their bi-centinnial. In less than 200 years the modern Greek-Hellenic nation has Warred approximately every second generation since their Independence from the Ottoman Turkish Empire...I say the modern Greeks have achieved plenty given the circumstances and the geography in which they find themselves.

Greece, The Hellenic Republic is situated in a region of the world which spawned Hellenism, the corner-stone and the foundation on which Wstern Civilization is based, but here, in the Haemus [Balkan] peninsula, Hellenism means little for them and counts for nothing. The region has become predominantly Turkic and Slavic in character and amongst these peoples the modern Greeks struggle to survive.

Turkics and Slavics have formed a partnership-alliance against Hellenism, we have witnessed the denigration of Hellenism by Turanids and by Slavists, both of them using common themes and synergies in their extremist anti-Hellenic and by the virtue of default, anti-Western propaganda.

Take away the culture, the Ideals and the core values Western Civilization is based on and what do we have left, what replaces it!

The Greeks alone should not have to bear the burden of defending Hellenism against extremist Turanid-Slavist propaganda, where both Mehmeto-Goranic Induced Individuals seek to undermine Western Civilization by bringing down the Greeks first...If Greece keels over, so does the West, in cultural terms I mean. Yes, modern Greeks do not compare with the ancient Greeks but we are still the closest living, walking talking modern humans to them...small in number, we shall continue to defend and protect what is ours, our heritage, our history.

Anonymous said...

Real Macedonians Preserve Hellenism.

Real Macedonians are the ones who remained loyal to Hellenism, proud to have retained that [Greek] language and that [Hellenic] culture which ultimately connects them back to that civilization and to that campaign their ancestor's initiated to expand [Hellenism] the Greek-Hellenic language, knowledge and culture to the farthestmost regions of the then known world.

Real Macedonians preserve Hellenism, in fact, they have always defended and protected the Greek world from outsider barbarian incursions and invasions.

The ancient Macedonians were just one of >230 known Greek-Hellenic groups tribes and kingdoms.

The ancient Macedonians belong to the Hellenic collective of peoples, the Greek family of Nations.

The ancient Macedonians were at the northern extremity of the Greek world. The Greek northern frontier was defended by them and protected by them.

The ancient Macedonians protected Greece and Hellenism from barbarian invasions and attacks, and by doing so they learned new military skills which they later used in order to take over and Govern Greece as one unified Nation of Hellenes.

Ancient Macedonians under Alexander the Great unified the fractious Greeks into one Nation and then proceeded to spread the Greek-Hellenic language knowledge and culture to the far reaches of the then known world.

How do we know all this...it was written down and recorded for posterity on Alexander the Greats orders, as if he knew that one day, far off into the future the Macedonians Greekness might be questioned, so he took out an Insurance policy.

Wherever the ancient Macedonians went, they left their "Calling Card" Carved deep into the building blocks of every City they built visited or renamed...but why did Alexander the Great do this ?

Simple...He wanted the world to see his and the ancient Macedonians Greekness.

Real Macedonians have always been Greek-Hellenic people...No Afrocentric Mehmeto-Goranic Induced SouthSlav can alter this fact, this academic reference point!

Anonymous said...

Todays Greeks claim quite legitimately, custodial responsibility for the ancient Hellenic legacy which does include Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity. The Hellenic Republic is the successor state to the old Byzantine Empire which makes modern Greeks heirs and Inheritors of their legacy, their history and their heritage...and through them, in backwards compatible well documented fashion, back to the ancient Hellenes.

1...Todays Greeks get their heritage from the Byzantine Greeks.

2...The Byzantine Greeks get their heritage from the Hellenes.

3...The Hellenes get their heritage from the Mycenean Greeks.

Three heritages...linking modern Greeks to previous Greeks in backwards compatible, well documented fashion. We want our neighbours to realize and recognize this, and to acknowledge they live in a region of the world which spawned Hellenism. It is this culture, Hellenic Ideals and core values which form the basis of Western civilization.

Anonymous said...

Without Western refinements to Hellenisms Ideals and Core Values...What else is there ???

Afrocentric Mehmeto-Goranic culture maybe!

The sheer thought of having to live in a world which adopted the Ideals and Core Values of the Afrocentrists, Turanids and Slavists makes me want to Vomit!

Any Ideology that can take the Classics and convert them into something African, something Turkic and something Slavic is just way to Vulgar to contemplate!

Anonymous said...

To say Macedonians are not Greeks is like saying:

1...Afolabi is not African

2...Mehmetin is not Turkic

3...Goran is not Slavic

Afrocentric, Turanid and Slavist revisionist pseudo-historians started something Toxic...

...They took something good like the Classics and coverted them into something Afro, something Turkic and something Slavic...They converted the Classics into something Vulgar!

They Mock Western culture by attacking Hellenism, the bedrock and the foundation on which Western civilization is based.

Afolabi, Mehmetin and Goran have No Idea what they started!

Anonymous said...

Macedonians have always been Greek-Hellenic people.

Anonymous said...

Every Tom Dick and Harry knows that Macedonians have always been Greek speaking Hellenic people. It is only the Abduls Mehmetins and Gorans that dont!

Anonymous said...

Real Macedonians are the Macedonians that remained loyal to Hellenism, proud to have retained that [Greek] language and that [Hellenic] culture which ultimately connects them back to that civilization and to that campaign their ancestor's initiated to expand [Hellenism] the Greek-Hellenic language, knowledge and culture to the farthestmost regions of the then known world.

Macedonians are the Greeks from Northern Greece who trace their ethnogenic, cultural-linguistic ancestors back to Theme-Macedonia, and before that, to Macedonia-Prima, and before that, to the biblical Macedonians, and before them, to the classical-Macedonians from antiquity.

Modern-Greeks connect back to previous-Greeks in perfect, backwards compatible cultural-linguistic fashion, without clash and without conflict.

Todays Greeks claim quite legitimately, custodial responsibility for the ancient-Hellenic legacy which does include Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity.

The Hellenic Republic is the successor state to the old Byzantine Empire which makes modern-Greeks heirs and Inheritors of the Byzantine legacy, their history and their heritage...through them and in perfect backwards-compatible well-documented fashion, back to the ancient-Hellenes.

FYRoM's Slavist-Indoctrinated ex-Yugoslavs, teamed-up with
some Turanid-Indoctrinated Turkics to Rubbish the modern-Greeks, in the expectation they could justify their presence in the Haemus peninsula as being somewhat indigenous and native Turkics and Slavics, in a region of the world steeped in Greek history.

After 21 years of FYRoM's existence...What have they really achieved. Viewed by Europeans as the most Afrocentric-Induced, Turanid-Influenced, Slavist-Indoctrinated country in Europe, an extension of Turkey in Europe!

Anonymous said...

FYRoM's Slavic speaking population can trace their history back to the Socialist Republic of Macedonia, set-up in 1945 in what was then, the Yugoslav Federation...before that, they could be traced back to the Vardar region of South-Serbia which was still within the Yugoslav Federation, and before that, to Serbia proper, where they were known as just Southern Serbs.

Before this juncture, FYRoM's Slavic speaking population can be traced back to the Ottoman Turkish Empire and before that, to the Byzantine Greco-Roman Empire...before that, to the Serbian Kingdom of Stephan Dusan and before that, to the Bulgarian Empire.

Before this juncture, FYRoM's Slavic speaking population could be traced back the settlements of the Slavic tribes in the Haemus (Balkan) peninsula during the 6th Century AD.

It could be argued that FYRoM's Slavic speaking population could trace remnants of their history further back, back to the Avaro-Hunnic Incursions of the Greco-Roman world. Slav Overlords, who along with the Bulgars ushered in waves of Slavic tribes into the Byzantine Empire.

It could also be argued that FYRoM's Slavic speaking population could trace remnants of their history even further back, back to the Greco-Romans who intermingled, and possibly cross-fertilized with the Avaro-Hunnic, Bulgaro-Slavic newcomers.

It could also be argued that FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are Macedonians...but that argument does not hold-up to what we know about them through the mainstream historical record.

Clearly, FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are not the Macedonian they think they are or were told they are!

Macedonians...YES, but only in the regional sense, courtesy of their Avaro-Hunnic, Bulgaro-Slavic ancestral forebears having settled a geographic-region in the Haemus named Macedonia II Secunda by the latin-Romans.

Macedonians...YES, but not in the Greek sense of that word.

Macedonians...YES, but not in the ethnic-racial sense, nor in the national sense, and neither in the cultural-linguistic sense.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs use a regional-geographic Identity for all the wrong reasons...those reasons offend Greece and the Greek-Hellenic peoples because the Macedonian name belongs in the Greek domain and Macedonian Identity belongs to Greek heritage.

Anonymous said...

Macedonians are Northern-Greeks...only fools, simpletons and Makedonist Indoctrinated South-Slavs deny it, dispute it and contest it, in the face of massive quantities of accumulated Overwhelming evidence.

Only fools and severely brainwashed South-Slavs attempt to blur the distinction between Macedonians and the rest of the Greeks.

Only hardened propagandists dare to equate Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity to the Slavonic race.

Macedonians are Greeks, they have always been Greeks and Greeks have always lived in Macedonia...with credentials like this, only foolish simpletons Indoctrinated on Makedonism say otherwise, testament to the brainwashing skills of their Slavist teachers.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs using the Macedonian name to describe themselves, their country, their nationality language and ethnicity is problematic and confusing...Macedonians already exist, they are Greeks and they have been using that regional-tribal name from since Millenia.

What rights do the Slavs of FYRoM have to rubbish this!

The right to self-determination does not transcend the rights of other peoples...FYRoM does not have right to usurp the Macedonian name on the basis it was never theirs to begin with!

If being Macedonian means being Greek in the first place, then our South-Slavic neighbours should respect that!

Anonymous said...

Greeks cannot permit Makedonist Indoctrinated South-Slavs to rubbish Greek-history, denigrate Hellenism or generally belittle, badmouth Greeks on the Internet. Slavist Makedonists from FYRoM along with their Turanid-Turkic partners got together to badmouth Greeks, to assassinate the Greek National-Character as best and as often as they possibly could.

Before 1991...The Greek National-Character was that of a typical Mediterenean, a Southern-European, a family orientated religious God-fearing Orthodox-Christian, with a flare for business and entrepreneurial acumen.

After 1991...When FYRoM entered onto the world stage, the Greek National-Character was attacked 24/7 to make the Greek look or appear like a lazy cheating Southern-European. The modern-Greek National Character assassinated at every given opportunity, but little did FYRoM and it's Western and Turkic backers, sponsors, supporters know, that the Greek Character having formed over millenia, can be summarized as being multi-faceted. Most people would firstly consider Greeks as Mediterenean peoples, but there is more...

1...Mediterenean: Greeks could be clustered together with Southern-Europeans, Italians, Maltese, Spaniards, Portuguese and to a lesser extent the French within the context of a greater Greco-Roman civilization.

2...Western European: Since, in the West, Greece is considered to be the cradle of Western civilization. Some Western Europeans actually see themselves in ancient-Greeks.

3...Eastern European: Since Byzantine-Greeks baptized christianized and civilized the Slavic tribes into the Greek-Orthodox Christendom.

4...Middle-Eastern: Since the Greek expansion and colonization eastwards, ensured prolonged ties with oriental eastern cultures.

5...Balkanian: Greeks are not comfortable with this term, Greeks prefer Southeastern-European instead, anyway, a Balkan Identity exists, similar to that of Albanians, Serbians, Bulgarians, Romanians and Western-Turks exists. There are discernible common elements, contributions from the Byzantine Eastern-Roman Empire and from the Ottoman Empire, contributions which bear testament to shared tradition attributes and mannerisms.

Greeks have always been a sea-faring International Peoples from since millenia.

The Greek Character is Multifaceted, drawing in, embedded experiances from 5 different geographical locations.

The Greeks were never restricted to just one particular country, there were no countries with fixed border's in ancient times.

Greeks during antiquity could be visualized as stretching from Iberia in the West to the Crimea in the East...and beyond.

There was never a country called Greece in ancient times, instead, there were many-Greeks inhabiting Many regions...from Iberia to the Crimea.

Lest we forget: From the river Iber in the West to the river Evros in the East, that space in between in a Greek concept...Evropi!

Can FYRoM really Rubbish This!

Anonymous said...

Something very Morbid in wanting to take the name of an ancient-peoples in order to apply it to your tribe, in the ethnic and racial sense and in the cultural-linguistic sense knowing full well and in advance that you are causing consternations with the living relatives that still use that name for Identity...Certainly, it is not a natural thing to do, I mean ofcourse to usurp the name of another peoples and then attempt to convince the outside world that you are the one more deserved of that name on the basis it applies to your language and to your country.

Something very Morbid in wanting to rewrite the history and the heritage of another-peoples in order to claim their legacy as yours, knowing full well and in advance that it is a legacy to which you have No real, earthly or natural connections to...Certainly, it is not a natural thing to do, I mean ofcourse to usurp their name, their history and their heritage on the basis it is a human-right to self-Identify the way you want, the way you feel and the way you see fit.

Something very Morbid in telling the world that you feel Macedonian on the basis, you have developed ethnic-feelings and collective memories for Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity knowing full well and in advance that those ancient-peoples were a Greek-speaking Hellenic peoples, whilst your ancestors were known to be Slavic-speakers from far away lands.

Something very Morbid in wanting to convince the outside world that you are Macedonian on the basis, your language is called Macedonian-language and your country is called Republic of Macedonia, therefore, on this alone, it gives you entitlements and rights to claim the history, the heritage and the legacy of Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity when it is known...you are Not one of these!

Something very Morbid...in wanting to convince yourself that you connect to ancient-peoples from a different ethnic and racial backround to your own, who's culture, Ideals and core values formed the bedrock and the foundation of Western civilisation.

Something very Morbid about that, because the very peoples you want to impress with your fabricated Macedonian-Identity already apply that Identity to Greeks in the regional-geographic context.

Macedonians are Greeks...Northern-Greeks Not Southern-Slavs.

Anonymous said...

Modern-day greeks are mongrels. They are not white like the macedonians or the Ancient Greeks at all.

1/3rd of the population consists of outright non-white pontian imports from Anatolia. Cypriots are not even white at all, either, as they are genetically related to the Lebanese. They are basically Hellenized eteocypriots and the Pontians are just Hellenized Middle Eastern anatolians.

They are basically a mix of Albanian Orthodox Christians (the founders of the Greek independence movement were all albanians) and Anatolian Middle Easterners (Pontians). The remaining white greeks are mainly macedonians.

White is not simply a complexion, it is a race that consists of a set of features. So, for example, many darker British people (like Russell Brand, Sean Connery, etc) look like Spaniards. Real White Mediterraneans simply look like darker nords.
So, Iberians, Northern Italians, Romans, Southern French and most balkaners are considered white as they have white facial features.

The leader of the Golden Dawn looks like a Turk. He is clearly of Middle Eastern ancestry. One can easily tell by facial features and body type. He could even be a Palestinian.

Pontians have hooked noses instead of sharp pointy noses like normal europeans since they are mixed with middle easterners. They also tend to have bushier crooked eyebrows instead of sharp eyebrows and many so-called Greeks even have very curly hair.

The Ancient Greeks were not nords, no, but they were white Mediterraneans. The irony is that modern-day macedonians and bulgarians (who are largely descendants of the thracians mixed with slavs) are probably genetically closer to the ancient greeks than modern greeks are. It explains why they are whiter too.


By the way, Hellenism was a pagan concept. It has never had anything to do with Christianity let alone the Greek Orthodox sect. Real Hellenism died out after Theodosius.

The only hellenes left are albanian and middle eastern pontian fakers, unfortunately.

Anonymous said...

TurkoSlavoMongol Monkey!

Turkistani - TurkoSlavic Abdul-Monkey!

Yellow Abdul-Monkey!

Anonymous said...

FYRoM's Slavs have been raised on Turkocentric - Afrocentric
- Slavist oriented revisionism and pseudo-history.

FYRoM's Slavist orientated pseudo-historians took something good like the classics and Rubbished them...converted them into something Vulgar

Anonymous said...

FYRoM's Abduls Mehmetins and Gorans are Not White!

More Turanid Yellow!

TurkoSlavoMongols!

Yugoslavic - TurkoSlavic Abdul-Monkeys

Anonymous said...

Greeks wouldn’t mind so much if the citizens of FYRoM claimed that they too also descend from Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity...but veered, branched-off from the main Hellenic core during the Slavic incursions
of the 6th Century AD.

Greeks wouldn't mind so much if the citizens of FYRoM claimed that they were Slavic-speaking Macedonians on the basis, their Hellenic forebears had to Slavicize [[by force][by free will]] during the settlement of the Slavic-tribes deep into Imperial Byzantine territories.

Greeks wouldn't mind so much if FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs placed themselves on an equilibrium with Greeks and staked a claim to the legacy of Alexander the Great on the basis of their Hellenic-heritage.

In reality, the Slavs of FYRoM have No Greek in them at all...they hate Greeks with a passion and hate Hellenism even more...on par with hating the West for creating the Greeks in the first place.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are a peoples bred for purpose, Indoctrinated on Makedonism...a Slavist based Ideology developed during the Communist years to take Macedonian-territory away from the Greeks in order to place it into Slavic-hands

Anonymous said...

That a small Slavic statelet like FYRoM endeavours to acquire for usurpation, a Greek-Hellenic name for self-Identity and for self-determination purposes, the Greeks find perplexing. There is something sinister in wanting to take another peoples name for your name, and when FYRoM pushes to have their Nationality-status, Ethnicity-status and Linguistic-status classified as Macedonian...the Greeks take offense, they see it as a direct threat to the existance of the Nation state of Hellas.

If this configuration were ever to be legitimized:

1 - Country-Name........Macedonian
2 - Nationality.........Macedonian
3 - Ethnicity...........Macedonian
4 - Language............Macedonian

Greeks would riot. Macedonia for Greece constitutes a large part of the country's Northern geographical-territory. The Greeks would lose in an instant, one of their ancient and archaic, regional-tribal names where more than 2.5 Million Greeks self-Identify as Macedonians in the regional sense.

Nationality follows the country-name, whilst ethnicity follows the language-name, FYRoM fights for this. Proxy - FYRoM fights to obtain these Identity factors in order to take Macedonia away from the Greeks.

Sinister moves. Slavist philologists gave them a language and name it Macedonian-language in 1944. Communists gave them a country and named it "Peoples Republic of Macedonia" in 1945 which became a Socialist Republic in 1946. These actions were hostile actions directed at Greece.

Looking back: Something was not right in naming a Serbo-Bulgarian language to Macedonian-language...when it is known that Macedonians are a regional-historic population group of ethnic-Greeks. Linguists and Philologists of today are the first to admit that FYRoM's language was in-fact Misnamed to Macedonian-language for political reasons in 1944, nothing more!

The Serbo-Bulgarian language that is spoken today by the Slavs of FYRoM has no ethnic relatedness to the Hellenic language that was spoken in antiquity by Alexander the Great but the children - pupils -students there believe it to be the one and same language!

Linguists - Philologists - Demographers - Ethnogenists - Historians: All of them support Greece in it's fight to defend - protect it's National-history, heritage and cultural-inheritance from FYRoM's callous state sponsored diaspora-driven anti-Hellenic propaganda.

Anonymous said...

The Greek leader Samaras looks tall and white.

The Former Yugoslav leader Guevski looks short with greasy black hair and moles on his face.

I'd say the Greeks are white and Mediterenean.

Fyrom Yugoslavs are short bow-legged Pakistani looking Turko-Mongols.

Why put Fyroms TurkoMongols in white catagory.

Anonymous said...

Dorians by origin and by blood, by speech and by genus, the main Identity-factor applicable to the Macedonians of lore was the Hellenic one. The Slavic-peoples of FYRoM must be encouraged to learn that the ancient-Macedonians did belong to term Hellenic, in all of it's meanings, and that no other Identity-term can be applicable them - not the Illyrian one, and certainly not the Thracian one, on the basis: Macedonians are the Greeks that Hellenized the Thracian-tribes. The Epirot-Illyrian origins of Alexanders mother were as Hellenic on an equilibrium with his fathers paternal side.

It must be stressed...The Macedonians of lore did belong to the Hellenic world and culture - to assign them a different Identity would be a travesty of what was writen about them in the mainstream historical narrative.

De-Hellenizing the Macedonians of lore and distancing modern-Greeks from them is what FYRoM does in it's learning institutions. Schools colleges and universities in that country are forbidden to use the Hellenic-term directly next to the Macedonian one...the two are kept seperate so that the children, pupils and students there do not make the connection between Macedonians and Hellenism.

FYRoM has used the country's state-apparatus to control what can and cannot be taught there. FYRoM has used state-sponsored propaganda directly, in it's classrooms and learning-institutions to promulgate the Idea that the Rosetta stone middle text inscriptions reveal the long-lost language of the ancient-Macedonians before they adopted koine, the lingua-franca as they call it. For the rest of the learned-world - the Rosetta stone middle text inscriptions were demotic Egyptian, but in FYRoM, they were coerced to learn something different.

The Macedonians of lore were as Hellenic as the Spartans of lore - Dorians to the core...Greeks by origin and by blood, by speech and by genus.

Should FYRoM be granted permission to rubbish this...and if they try - should the Greeks let them!

Anonymous said...

How bright does one need to be to dismiss out of hand - the Idea that Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity were Slavic speakers from FYRoM.

How much Intellectually endowed does one have to get, to figure out that FYRoM's claims to a Macedonian Identity are completely bogus, unfounded without basis and without foundation.

How smart does one have to be, to figure out Alexander the Great was the Greek king of Macedon - a cursory look at any one of the many On-line Encyclopaedias, reveal that simple historical fact. How knowledgeable does one have to be, to figure out that FYRoM's claim to a Macedonian-Identity is misguided, completely erroneous, not rooted in historical verity. How learned does one have to get, to fathom out that a nation of Macedonians outside of Hellenism has never ever existed in historical verity.

How much Intelligence does one need, to connect Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity to Greek speaking Hellenic peoples. At what stage during the educational process does it become common-knowledge - linking Macedonians with Hellenism.

How much education does one need to attain a level of knowledge considered adequate, to connect ancient-Macedonians with the rest of the Greeks.

How much Information do FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs need before it dawns on them that Macedonians have always been Greek-speaking Hellenic-people.

How much schooling does one need, to link FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs with Serbian and Bulgarian South-Slavs. At what level of enlightenment does one need to reach, to figure out that FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are not the Macedonians they think they are or told they are!

Macedonians have always been Greek speaking Hellenic peoples. Only hardened propagandists or severely brainwashed Individuals equate Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity with Serbian and Bulgarian South-Slavs from FYRoM.

Anonymous said...

True White people are the Albino types - If we refer to white people as Caucasian, then Greeks are just as white as any other but If we base Whiteness solely on skin colour, then that would make Albino people the only true whites as the majority of European people are not actually white, but a blend of olive and off-white...that said, the Whiteness of a Germanic or a Celtic or a Slavic, means what exactly ???

The Germanics were forest dwellers, wallowing knee deep in forest mud - the Celts an earthy peoples also, and the Slavs...well what of the Slavs! Each of these so called White races showed themselves to be inferior to the civilized peoples of the Mediterenean.

Lets not forget the Hellenics gave us the word Evropi - A Europe without Greek-Hellenic peoples in it is not Europe at all, rather a place where a conglomorate patch-work alliance, descendents of forest dwellers, earthy peoples and Slavs live in splendid isolation. Evidently, these races do not mix easily with each other...in fact, they cannot stand the sight of each-other!

Whiteness eh!- I look at Greco-Roman peoples and see a brightness, a certain beauty to behold. I look at Germanics Celtics and Slavics...a Whiteness so dull, it pales in comparison to the Greco-Roman Peoples!

Greeks are Mediterenean peoples first and foremost - different to Germanics - Celtics - Slavics...Proudly different and confident in the knowledge that it was the Hellenic race that set the standard.

Anonymous said...

At all of these levels, geographically, linguistically, historically and culturally - todays Greeks can boast to be the closest related modern-peoples to the ancient ones. The connections transcend biological fraternal ties which bind them to their ancestors. They are as closely related to the ancient-Macedonians as they are to the ancient-Athenians, ancient-Spartans, Corinthians, Thessalians, Ionians and the whole list of Hellenic tribes that constituted the ancient-Hellenic world from antiquity. The path of least resistance flows through the modern Greeks - no other peoples in the Haemus [Balkan] peninsula can boast what the Greeks boast.

FYRoM's [ex-Yugo] Slavs embarrass themselves when they tell the world they are more Macedonian than the Greeks...they embarrass Slavdom also, and insult the Greeks and Hellenism in the process.

The Macedonian-name is older than FYRoM's Slavic ancestors arrival to the region. Slavs were newcomers to Macedonia, arriving there at the top-end of the 6th Century AD, almost a millennium after the death of Alexander the Great. Any newcomer that settles an already inhabited region has no relatedness to the pre-existing population there. FYRoM's Slavic ancestors cross-fertilizing [[by force][free will]] with the local population there would still only make them partially-Greek, with partial-Greek rights to their legacy history and heritage.

Slavdom should pull FYRoM to one side and explain to them with whom they are dealing - Hellenism has endured in the Haemus [Greek] peninsula for more than 3 Millenniums. Greek-Hellenic culture has endured Persian excruciations, Celtic invasions, Roman occupation, Hunnic barbarity, Ostro-Gothic treachery, Slavic settlement, Pope inspired crusades, Catholic betrayal and Turkish domination spanning a time continuum of more than 1000 years...Greeks survived to tell the tale. Greeks preserved Hellenism, the Hellenic language and culture into the modern era.

If the Slavs of FYRoM think they can take something from Hellenism, something which never belonged to them in the first place, then truly, they do not know with whom they are dealing.

Greeks reserve the right to defend and protect what is theirs by birthright. Greeks shall defend Hellenism in the Haemus [Greek] peninsula. Greeks shall protect Hellenism, a culture and a way of life that has endured for more than 3 Millenniums.

Long live Hellas, long live the Greek-Hellenic peoples.

Anonymous said...

The region where FYRoM is located right now is a place that used to be called Paoenia back in ancient times. To the north of Paeonia lay Dardania. These lands were annexed and incorporated into a much larger extended-Macedonia by the latin-Romans, for administrative purposes - Paeonia and Dardania were never part of the original ancient-Kingdom of Macedon. FYRoM's attempt to establish itself as a new Slavic country
called Macedonia, clashes and conflicts with the geography and the demographic history of the Haemus [Greek] peninsula.

If FYRoM was ever to be permitted to appropriate and assume total usurpation of the Macedonian name for their new country, nationality, language and ethnicity on an exclusive basis...the Greeks would automatically lose in an instant and at a stroke, something primordially Hellenic - a good causal reason for the Greeks to take-up arms, to fetch back to Hellenism something that was given without their permission.

FYRoM is not Macedonia and those who attempt to establish it as such have the Greeks to contend with.

Long Live Hellas - My Country, My Nation, My Family, My Honour, My Pride...Make Me Proud!

Anonymous said...

Modern day Greeks are anatolian mongrels who are heavily admixed with hellenized pisidians/lydians/carians, etc. The Anatolians were ME people who were hellenized/romanized/turkified, etc. That's why they cluster with ashkenazi jews (ME/European hybrids) and have heavy e3b, j2, j1, etc.

farm9 staticflickr .com /8445/7888154404_42d9f51b92_z.jpg

Modern day cypriots are just hellenized/turkified eteocypriot semites. That's why they genetically cluster with druze arabs and sephardic jews.

2.bp.blogspot .com /-gNGfQ-Y3gNM/UTEX3FRvWiI/AAAAAAAAIqk/f6spz9zjY4I/s1600/journal.pgen.1003316.g002.png

Original Centum IE speakers looked closer to this:

historicmysteries. com /wp-content/uploads/2010/01/tarim.jpg

They were white.

Anonymous said...

TurkoSlavic Monkey - FYRoM Turkish Abdul-Monkey!

Todays Greeks are the sole and legal heirs and inheritors of the ancient-Macedonian legacy and Byzantine legacy.

Greeks protect their Hellenic heritage from the likes of FYRoM Turkish South-Slavs who litter the internet with anti-Greek propaganda.

Go Home Abdul!

TurkoSlavic Abdulovic Kemalovic Goranovic Monkey!

Anonymous said...

Macedonia is Hellenic - FYRoM is anti-Hellenic

FYRoM has taught the west that Hellenism is most definately worth defending. Evidently Hellenism with it's Ideals and core values is witnessing a revival in the west!

So, we should ask ourselves...is Hellenism really worth defending in the west, in light of recent attempts by Slavocentric, Afrocentric and Turkocentric cultures to replace it.

The Greeks should not have to bear the burden of having to defend and protect Hellenism alone - the west has an obligation, a moral duty and an ethical responsibility to defend and protect a culture they adopted from ancient Greece and Rome. A culture Alexander the Great spread to the East and which the Romans spread to the West.

Wise men in the West are asking themselves...What kind of a civilized western-world could there be, if Hellenism was allowed to be toppled by the likes of Slavocentrism, Afrocentrism and Turkocentrism.

FYRoM has made the West think and take a deep long look at itself.

The West likes what it sees - Greek in wisdom...Roman in jurisdiction, a good look, in comparison to those alien exogenous cultures and civilizations that compete to replace Hellenism.

Lest we forget - Hellenism is the culture of choice for the West...something worth defending!

Anonymous said...

How embarrasing, to kick start-off a campaign aimed directly at the international community, to see FYRoM as Macedonia and to see the ancient-Kingdom of Macedon as a Slavic-speaking Kingdom, inhabited by proto-Slavic peoples led by Aleksandar Veliki the first Czar of the Slavs...how embarrasing must it be for FYRoM now, considering that campaign was a dismal failure.

With all that financial backing and with all that impressive support, FYRoM's wealthy and powerful sponsors attempted to establish FYRoM as a Macedonian Nation against Greek concerns...so why did the campaign fail ?

Quite simply - Political expediances cannot ride roughshod over historical reference-points. Scholars of the classics knew the Macedonians to have self-declared Greek. Important Macedonians participated in the Olympic games having gone through a judging process...a sitting panel of judges had to judge you Greek enough to pass, to be able to participate in the games.

There was a serious attempt made to establish FYRoM as Macedonia...but that attempt failed, so now FYRoM is told politely to compromise, to adjust it's name in order to reflect the reality on the ground - FYRoM is Paeonia not Macedonia, and the peoples there are Slavic not Hellenic. FYRoM cannot be Macedonia when Macedon, the ancient-Kingdom is situated in the Hellenic Republic.

How embarrasing, to go global with a name that does not belong to you, and have the international community keep you at arms length...at distance!

FYRoM placed it's future in the hands of it's diasporas...they made promises to powerful entities FYRoM could not keep, then to make things worse, FYRoM's backers supporters and sponsors miscalculated the international communities collective intelligence of matters Macedonian.

Mention FYRoM nowadays and politicians turn their head...so do scholars of the classics.
Today, both historians and politicians view FYRoM as the usurper of Greek history. FYRoM the Slavic usurper of the Macedonian legacy...with all that entails!

FYRoM is the illegitimate claimant of Macedonian history and heritage - the Slavic pretender to the ancient-Macedonian legacy.

No Shame, No Ethics, No Morals - just primitive attempts to take from Hellenic culture, elements which do not belong to South-Slavs. The West see FYRoM like this, in exactly these terms.

With every passing year, the distance between FYRoM and the Euro-Atlantic economic and security structures it says it aspires to join, get wider and wider...FYRoM is kept at arms length because nobody in the West believes Macedonians originated from Slavic stock.

How embarrassing!

Anonymous said...

FYRoM tried to change the World - World history that is! No country on Earth tried harder to change World history...than FYRoM.

The Slavs of FYRoM tried to make the ancient-Macedonians Slavic, and themselves...the beneficiaries of their legacy!

FYRoM tried to change the World by rewriting the long established mainstream historical narrative...all they really changed was the World View of them - FYRoM!

FYRoM is seen as the usurper of Greek history, the Slavic pretender to the ancient-Macedonian legacy. Macedon was an ancient-Greek Kingdom and the Macedonians...well, they are Northern-Greeks from Dorian-Greek stock like Spartans are Southern-Greeks from the same Dorian-Greek stock.

Because FYRoM Rubbished Greek-history and by extension, World-history...the country is viewed as being anti-Hellenic and anti-Western, evidenced in what they say and do.

Because of this - FYRoM is kept at arms length, at a distance from the economic and security structures of the EU and NATO.

Mention FYRoM nowadays and politicians just turn their head.

Anonymous said...

Nordic Schitts - Greeks and Latins have always been Mediterrenean peoples - never Nordics.

Nordic Shytes!



Anonymous said...

The West needs to re-assert the cultural-historical narrative inherited from the latin-Romans via the ancient-Greeks.

Western culture has been allowed to erode - Greeks and Romans slandered and their achievements belittled, enabling other lesser cultures to oust the host culture.

Western culture is under attack, our very existence is under threat if the Ideals and core values we hold dear are allowed to erode down to meaningful levels.

The Western cultural-historical narrative has to make a come back.











Anonymous said...

The best way to erode Western civilization is to attack the Greeks first, to belittle them, their culture, and their contributions to world history.

The best way to attack the Greeks is to strike deep into their cultural roots...to strike at their language, to strike their Christian Orthodox religion, and strike at their history and heritage in order to neutralize them, and their ability to develop, to distinguish themselves, or to prevail.

Each strike at the Greeks erodes Western civilization incrementally...that bit more!

When our Western Partners and European Cousins flirted with Turkey - they contributed to the incremental erosion of Western Culture and by extension...Western Civilization.

Explanation:

When our American Cousins came up with Idea to force a strategic marriage partnership on Israel and Turkey - they put in place, an alliance which did more damage to Western Culture and Western Civilization than the Americans bargained for, or could have imagined. Turkey accessed Western Media Assets via that strategic partnership. Turkey aired the FYRoM historical narrative, in all of the West's Media platforms, the results were to incrementally etch away at the maintream Western Cultural Historical narrative to spite the Greeks.

But it's not just FYRoM or Turkey - the West is actually doing harm to itself!

Explanation:

When our Keltic Cousins belittle Greco-Roman contributions to world history in order to promote their Keltic ones - they erode Western Culture, and by extension...Western Civilization, incrementally!

When our Germannic Cousins humiliate the Greeks and the Latins, for being lazy cheating Southern-Europeans - they erode Western Culture and Western Civilization, incrementally!

Somehow, the West lost the ability to lead by example - by those ancient-standards, Ideals and Core values inherited from the ancient-Greeks and Romans.

Somehow, the West lost touch with it's Greco-Roman cultural roots - an inheritence now lost to ignorance and malice.

When our American Cousins support anti-Western entities, and when our Keltic Cousins downplay Greco-Roman contributions to world history, and when our Germannic cousins see Greco-Romans as lazy cheating Southerners - What did they expect to happen...

Being anti Greco-Roman is incrementally killing the West. Being anti-Hellenic is killing the West. Being anti-Western is a fad nowadays and a rising growth industry...see Afrocentric Culture, see Turanid Culture, see FYRoM Culture - they all vye and compete to bring the West down.

Western Civilization is on a spiral downwards for as long as Western Culture continues to be suppressed, kept from spreading and developing.

The fix is easy but it requires commitment from our Western Partners and European Cousins - Preserve the Western Cultural Historical Narrative...if it is left to die, the West dies too!

Anonymous said...

There is more to Europe then just Pressing Buttons and Pushing Levers for 10 Hours per Day, at the Least Possible Cost to the Industrialist - it is called Culture, and the erosion of it must cease. Our common Western Cultural Historical Narrative must be preserved...especially today, in the New-Age!

Preserving the Western Cultural Historical Narrative is becoming a priority in light of the many challenges Western Culture is facing from the now familiar contestants, the New Age Southern-Slavs, and the New-Age Turks from Turkey, the Balkans and Cyprus.

New-Age Southern-Slavs from FYRoM, along with a grouping of New-Age Turks from Anatolia, the Balkans and Cyprus have teamed-up together and scripted themselves a New-Age Historical Narrative to compete with the mainstream long established Western one.

New-Age Turkix history makes Turkix Trojans and New-Age Slavix history makes Slavix Macedonians!

I say again: The Western Cultural Historical Narrative must be preserved in light of these provocative, ignorant and malicious TurkoSlavix challenges!

Anonymous said...

New-Age pseudo-historical revisionists threaten to blur the distinction between Western Civilization and it's Greek and Latin foundations.

Western Culture attracts many critics but none of them try to alter the foundations on which Western Civilization is based but for the two that have now been Identified.

Western Civilization faces many threats, not least from the many foreign cultures that chose willingly and voluntarily to live under Western skies. The main threat though, comes from 5th Columnists...those who outwardly appear to be part of the West, but in-fact work against it - Turkey and FYRoM are the two cases in point that have been Identified.

Both FYRoM and Turkey actively work towards changing the long established Western mainstream historical narrative!

New-Age Turks see themselves as having native and autochthonous Anatolian Trojan roots, whilst New-Age FYRoM Slavs see themselves as having native autochthonous Haemus Macedonian roots.

Like 5th Columnists outwardly appear to be integral to the host entity they are active in...both FYRoM and Turkey actively work to erode the foundations of Western Civilization by scripting themselves National Historical Narratives that clash and compete with the long established Western mainstream.

Turkix and Slavix New-Age Pseudo-Historical Revisionists work to split Western Civilization from it's Greek and Latin foundations.

The West cannot allow New-Age Turx, alongside New-Age FYRoM Slavs to Rubbish Greco-Roman Classicist history...for all the reasons stated above!

Western Civilization is worth preserving - without it, what is there but the now familiar TurkoSlavic cultures that vye and compete with the Western one for the hearts and minds the peoples!

Anonymous said...

Macedonia:So What is FYRoM Defending...Actually ?

Some elements in the West defended FYRoM's right to name itself by a name of the peoples choosing, Republic of Macedonia...but this choice conflicted with a regional-tribal historical-name which historians attributed to an ancient tribe of Greeks. The ancient-Kingdom of Macedon is situated in northern Greece, FYRoM's southern neighbour.

FYRoM's choice of sovereign state-name conflicts with the name of an ancient-Greek Kingdom and clashes with the mainstream Western Cultural historical narrative.

To date: All those Western elements that defended FYRoM's right to name itself 'Republic of Macedonia' no longer hold that position in consideration to the friction it has created with Greece and the mainstream historical record. Western Civilization and the Western Cultural-Historical Narrative is largely influenced by the actions of those ancient-Greek Macedonians.

Clearly, FYRoM's choice of soveriegn state-name poses problems to Greece and sows the seeds of discord in a region that can do without such conflicts.

When the UN, EU, USA, NATO and the international Academic Community defend Greece in it's effort to protect it's cultural-historical heritage - What is FYRoM defending...actually ?

The right to call itself by a Greek-Hellenic regional-tribal name, whilst the bearers of that name are still around and still continue to use it in the tradition of their regional historical ancestors! Is this defendable - Morally, Ethically ?

The name-dispute between FYRoM and Greece transcends politics...in the political realm, FYRoM has right to name itself the way it wishes and see fit but to exercize that right places FYRoM into a Morall and Ethical dilemma - Why would a newly emergent Slavic-country wish to name itself by a regional-tribal name attributed to ancient-Greeks.

FYRoM's rights must be put into the proper political and historical context when balanced against the framework of Western Civilization and the mainstream Western Cultural Historical Narrative...in this picture, FYRoM's political rights are far outweighed by the Moral and Ethical issues they raise.

So what is FYRoM defending exactly...the right to name itself after a name attributed to ancient-Greeks is neither ethical nor moral in light of the resistance world-bodies and global-institutions attach to legitimizing the much covetted name the Slavs of FYRoM wish to self-determine by!

Macedonians and Hellenism formulated Western Civilization - FYRoM's wish to use that name for sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity must be put into the proper political and historical context...when viewed from that perspective - FYRoM's wish to name itself 'Republic of Macedonia' becomes an indulgence, more trouble to accomodate than what it is worth.

Anonymous said...

entvaWhen this question was raised 'What is the West actually defending' when they defend FYRoM's inalienable political right to name itself the way it so wishes and sees fit...It was quickly realized that the West was actually defending a political right that was loaded with moral issues and ethical issues, and cultural-historical ones also. When that realization kicked-in, the fledgling country's Western sponsors backers and benefactors ended their support.

The cause to establish FYRoM as an Independent Nation State peopled by Slavic-speaking Macedonians went too far against the mainstream Western Cultural-Historical Narrative, and created friction between Historians and Politicians. The international Academic Community overwhelmingly support Greece in the long running name-dispute with FYRoM, whilst some elements in Western political circles were seen to be over-active in their support for a cause which historians criticized and were not prepared to endorse.

FYRoM's Political rights clash with Academic reference points - the Macedonian name FYRoM covets for sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity is out of step, not compatible with the geography and demography there, and out of sync with the recorded historical time-table. FYRoM is Paeonia and Dardania by geography, Slavic and Albanian by demography...the Slavic-language that is spoken in FYRoM was not there before the 6th Century AD.

When all of these inconsistancies were raised, there was no option for the West but to end their support for a cause which pitted historian against politician, academic reference-points against revisionism and pseudo-history, poltical-rights against moral and ethical codes of conduct...and pitted the Western Cultural-Historical Narrative against FYRoM's fabricated National Narrative, which made Alexander the Great the first Czar of the Slavs and ancient-Macedonians Proto-Slavs.

When all of these inconsistancies and contradictions were placed on the table...the West was forced to ask the question 'What are we defending actually' but a cause which creates friction between FYRoM and Greece and places into question the verity and validity of Western Civilizations Cultural-Historical Narrative.

The establishment of FYRoM as the 'Republic of Macedonia' makes a mockery of the Western Cultural Historical Narrative. The erosion of Western Civilization is exacerbated when the foundations of Western Culture are permitted to become unstable! Western Civilization is worth preserving...without it, what is there?

Anonymous said...

Because they never learned it in history class...the peoples of FYRoM believe they have perfect right to exercise their inalienable political rights to name their newly emergent country 'Republic of Macedonia'

Learned peoples though, side with Greece...they believe Greece has perfect right to defend and protect the country's national historic-rights and cultural-historical heritage.

Once educated on the subject - one has to weigh-up the use of FYRoM's political rights against the Moral and Ethical issues of doing so!

Educated historians on the matter, know the Macedonians to have been a Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples from since the days of King Karanus 808 - 778 BC!

Once educated on the subject...learned peoples know FYRoM to be playing a game of indulgence. FYRoM miscalculated the Western response, and the international communities collective intelligence on matters Macedonian - a clear lack of judgement on their behalf.

In the Western mind-set...It would be considered Morally inept and Ethically inappropriate for educated politicians and diplomats to endorse and legitimize FYRoM's use of an ancient-Greek name for sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity.

FYRoM is quarantined on that sole basis!

No Western politician would put pen to paper that would legitimize the Macedonian name to FYRoM - the West has seen FYRoM for what it really is...the usurper, the Slavic pretender to the ancient-Macedonian legacy, a legacy that played a crucial role in paving the earliest foundations of Western Civilization.

Anonymous said...

FYRoM says, it aspires to join the EU and NATO...the Western Worlds most prestigious economic and security structures which together form the Euro-Atlantic trading block and strategic security zone, but the West cannot welcome into it's fold an entity that harbours resentment, ill-will and anti-Western sentiments.

FYRoM is an anti-Hellenic entity...anti-Western by extension!

The focus now, is to preserve Western-Civilization from cultural erosion...the kind of erosion that permeates in places like FYRoM, Turkey and elsewhere - the now familiar candidates that denigrate Western Civilization on the core fundamentals of it's Cultural-Historical foundation.

FYRoM aspires to join the Western World, but to bring it into the fold requires the Western Cultural-Historical Narrative to be re-written...FYRoM has already written a version of pseudo-history which makes the Slavs there, the founding fathers of Western Civilization.

In the FYRoM version of classicist history, Alexander the Great becomes Aleksandar Veliki and the ancient-Macedonians become Proto-Slavs - the West owe their cultural-enlightenment to Slavs.

FYRoM's pseudo-scriptures send a chill down the spine of the Western Worlds most respected classicist-scholars and academics alike...they cringe at the thought and the prospect of allowing FYRoM into the Western fold as the 'Republic of Macedonia' with National Pseudo-Historical Narrative to match - this is just pure indulgence, something classicist-historians are not prepared to accomodate.

Anonymous said...

It is crucial that each regional-tribal people-group know their place in the world geographically and their contributions to the world, historically.

When our Western-Partners and European-Cousins downplay the contributions Greeks and Latins made to world-history, they incrementally erode something from the mainstream historical record. Western-peoples owe their enlightenment to the ancient-Greeks and Romans but this is sometimes clouded-over in order to elevate the contributions of the Keltic-peoples and Germannic-peoples.

European history starts way before the Gauls, Franks and [Charlemagne] Karalos Magnos. The beginnings of Germannic history should not be used to cloud-over the history of the Greeks and of the Latins. When the Germans and the Kelts cloud-over Greco-Roman history in order to elevate their own, they erode something from the mainstream historical narrative.

The Western Cultural-Historical Narrative must be preserved...any changes or alterations would see the Turx claiming Trojan descent and South-Slavs claiming Macedonian descent.

When the Kelto-Germannic tribes of Europe attempt to belittle the contributions of the ancient-Greeks and Latins...it is seen by the Turx and the FYRoM Slavs as free-license to do the same. Classicist Greco-Roman history must be respected by our Kelto-Germannic cousins in order that Turx and South-Slavs do the same.

Macedonians have always been:(i) Greek-speakers,(ii) Hellenic-peoples...those who deny it are by default, anti-Western and anti-Hellenic by extension.

We are now familiar with those who seek to alter the Western Cultural-Historical Narrative - FYRoM and Turkey are known for their attempts at rewriting Western Civilizations earliest recorded history.

FYRoM and Turkey - This pair are best kept at arms length...at a distance, for that same reason.

The Macedonian name is not sharable unless those who seek to share it, recognize and acknowledge the rights and concerns of the Greek-Hellenic people-group that still continue to self-determine in the tradition of their regional historical ancestors.

It goes against the grain...for a Slavic people-group, to usurp the regional-tribal name of a Hellenic people-group.

Academic Reference Points must be upheld and the Western Cultural-Historical Narrative Preserved...Kelto-Germannic peoples must recognize and acknowledge that!

Anonymous said...

Almost everybody involved in Politics with passing knowledge of the FYRoM - Greece name-dispute, sees FYRoM in bad light on the issue.

Almost all, of the worlds diplomatic institutions hold FYRoM responsible for prolonging a dispute which should have been settled back in 2009.

Almost the whole International Academic Community accuse FYRoM of usurping a regional-tribal name they attribute to an ancient-Greek people-group.

Almost everybody you speak to that is half-educated on Greco-Roman classicist-history see FYRoM as the usurper of the Macedonian name - the Slavic Pretender to the ancient-Macedonian legacy.

The World View of FYRoM does not look good...in fact, FYRoM shall go down in history as that small Slavic statelet that tried to fabricate a history and a heritage historians attribute to a neighbouring peoples.

FYRoM shall go down in recorded history on two fundamental points.

1...As that newly emergent country that tried to usurp the regional-tribal name of an ancient-Hellenic people-group.

2...As that Slavic-Pretender to the ancient-Macedonian legacy.

History shall judge FYRoM harshly on those two points above.

No country tried harder to erode Western Civilizations Cultural-Historical Narrative moreso than FYRoM...with assistance from Turkey and Sponsors!

FYRoM, backed by Turkey and Sponsored by some anti-Western elements were willing to rewrite history at the expense and exclusion of the Greeks, but for the concerns of some astute and upright classicist-scholars who judged it right to challenge political expediancy over academic reference points.

History shall be the final judge over the FYRoM cause, a cause which tried to establish a Macedonian Nation State that was to be peopled by NoN-Greeks with a history and a heritage to match...something unnatural, something which never existed in historical verity - a complete fabrication.

The West owes it's cultural enlightenment to FYRoM, according to FYRoM revisionist Pseudo-Historians...supported by Turkey and sponsored by some anti-Hellenic elements in the West - this would have become a reality but for the Greeks and the international academic community holding out against Political Expediance. In reality and in actual-fact, the West owe their cultural enlightenment to the ancient Greeks and Romans. History cannot be altered simply by rewriting it!

Western Civilizations Cultural-Historical Narrative must be protected...from the now familiar candidates.

Anonymous said...

By their own admissions and historical testimonies, Macedonians always declared themselves Greek...in genous and in speech - Who is that stupid, that imbecilic they want to deny Greeks their right to self-determine in the tradition of their regional historical ancestors!

Anonymous said...

Uncultured in the classicist sense leaves open the path for (i) modern-culture or (ii) foreign-culture to take root.

Modern culture is based on material greed and self-worth...recipes which benefit only the banks commerce and industry. Modern societies are becoming cultureless intentionally, and it shows.

Foreign cultures in Western society erode more the host default culture Western peoples forgot existed.

So what is the West defending actually - the slow erosion of Western Civilizations Cultural-Historical Narrative in order that Modern Culture take root? This option only leads to more erosion, accelerating the rate of decline of the default host culture.

Preserving the Western worlds Cultural-Historical Narrative must be made a priority - Western Culture is worth protecting in the face of the now familiar competitor cultures waiting to take it's place!


Anonymous said...

Western Civilization is being allowed to erode in order that something else take it' splace - but what else is there that is on-par, or at least comparable to Western Culture ?

To erode Western Culture, the foundations of it must first be destabilized - The target became the Wests Cultural-Historical Narrative...the erosion of it started in FYRoM from since 1991, when FYRoM entered onto the World stage and began to contest the ethnic-racial, cultural and linguistic Identity of Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity.

FYRoM was never alone though...evidently, they were aided and abetted by some home-grown politicized anti-Western elements, along with some radicalized Turkish-groups and some highly propagandized Slavist-Makedonists from FYRoM and FYRoM's diasporas, who used their wealth to fund already prepared, pre-loaded, anti-Hellenic propaganda to do the rounds on every Media-platform known to Man and Science. The Western-Worlds own Media Assets were used to promote FYRoM's anti-Hellenic propaganda which in turn and by default is anti-Western by extension.

Clearly, some Western-politicians loathe to upkeep the Wests own, host default culture, they care-less about the erosion of it, favouring more some mythicized universal Modern-Culture centered around the now familiar tenets of human-rights and political-correctness.

Civilization and Culture: These concepts are more important now than ever before - If allowed to erode, the concequences do not bear thinking about!

Anonymous said...

Macedonia: Greece and the Nations Historic Rights.

Greece has historic-rights over the ancient-Kingdom of Macedon. The Hellenic Republic has moral and legal obligations to protect and defend the Nations historic-rights and hereditary-rights. Greeks cannot recognize a Macedonian-peoples that are not Greek from Hellenic stock...hence, the Hellenic Republic would never recognize FYRoM as an independant country called 'Republic of Macedonia'

It is known, an established fact, something that is clearly depicted in all of the worlds reputable academic demographic journals, that FYRoM is a South-Slavic country that is peopled by a Slavic-speaking population with culture and traditions to match.

It is known also, that Macedonians have self-declared Greek for >3 Millenniums - FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs should respect that!

The Onus is on FYRoM to compromise in the long running name dispute with Greece over the use of the Macedonian-name which FYRoM covets for sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity.

Macedonians have always been Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples - a regional historical people-group of ethnic-Greek stock...who is that stupid, that imbecilic to contest it when the international academic community support and endorse the ancient-Macedonians Greek-Hellenic Identity.

In FYRoM live simple-minded, simple-hearted, gullible-peoples...ready to believe in the unbelievable, when coerced and told to do so!

FYRoM loses integrity when they teach the children there to see themselves as Macedonians, to see their country as Macedonia, and to believe that their language is the Macedonian-language that was spoken in antiquity by Alexander the Great.

FYRoM is not Macedonia geographically and the peoples there are Slavic, from Serbian Bulgarian stock, with Serbo-Bulgarian language to match.

In FYRoM live gullible, simple-minded peoples...ready to believe that they are the real Macedonians, the modern heirs and inheritors of the ancient-Macedonian legacy.

Anonymous said...

Macedonians are Greek from since >3 Millenniums - Those who dont know that, dont know history. Those who contest that are usually Abduls Mehmetins and Gorans. Those who deny it are the same.

Greeks live next to primitive brainwashed Indoctrinated TurkoSlavs with an Axe to grind over historical matters relating to ancient-Turx and Proto-Slavs.

All of the countries in the Haemus peninsula surrounding Greece want something from the past to call their own...even if it means distorting the long established mainstream historical narrative to get their way. Greeces neighbours see something of themselves in ancient-Trojans and ancient-Macedonians, they have scripted themselves national histories to reflect that.

The Western Worlds Cultural Historical Narrative is being rewritten in order to accomodate the revisionist pseudo-historical fantasies of some West-Hating Pan-Turkix and Pan-Slavix alliances.

When young Turkix children see their ancestors in ancient-Trojans...the West should step-in to correct the mistake.

When young Slavix children see their ancestors in ancient-Macedonians...the West should step-in to correct the mistake.

The West's Cultural-Historical Narrative is worth preserving - Classicist historian scholars protect it...the political and diplomatic classes should do the same.

Anonymous said...

The Western Worlds Cultural Historical Narrative recorded the ancient-Macedonians as a Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples. FYRoM cannot use the Macedonian Name for sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity.

The Message is Clear: FYRoM cannot use another peoples regional-tribal name for National-Identity - Crystal Clear!

From a Historical Perspective - Macedonia and Macedonians were always depicted as belonging to the Greek-Hellenic World.

From a Linguistic Perspective - Macedonia and Macedonians was always portrayed as a Centum-Greek speaking region inhabited by North-Dorian Hellenic-peoples

From a Cultural Perspective - Macedonia and Macedonians were always seen subscribing to Hellenism...the culture of the Greeks.

From a Religious Perspective - Macedonia and Macedonians were always illustrated practicing the religious beliefs of the Greeks.

From a Material-Culture Perspective - Macedonia and Macedonians always used Greek things...from dress code to building materials, to pots and pans.

From a Foreign Perspective - Macedonia and Macedonians was always seen as a Greek-speaking region inhabited by Hellenic-peoples.

From a latin-Roman Perspective - Macedonia and Macedonians were ring-fenced into Macedonia-Prima...an administrative district the latin-Romans kept Greek and distinct.

Macedonia Secunda Salutaris...the Second-Macedonia, or Beneficial-Macedonia, was an administrative district the latin-Romans reserved for NoN-Greeks - Paeonians, Dardanians etc.

From a Greco-Roman Perspective - Macedonia and Macedonians were ring-fenced into a military district protected zone named 'Theme-Macedonia' situated in Thrace...where modern-day Bulgaria is situated.

From a Naming Perspective - Macedonia(n) is an ancient and archaic Greek-Hellenic regional-tribal name...created by Centum-Greek speakers, the originators of the name in the first place.

From Ownership Perspective - Macedonia and Macedonians: The best demonstration of Ownership over that name is 'Theme-Macedonia' where Byzantine Greco-Romans relocated the name to a different geographical location in Thrace. Names go wherever the creators and oroginators take them...even to different far away places.

Conclusion:Macedonia is Hellenic from since the times of King Karanus 778-808 BC...

...and the rest is history!

Anonymous said...

The FYRoM cause: An indulgent endeavour on behalf of some anti-Hellenic Western political elements to establish FYRoM as a NoN-Greek Macedonian Nation to spite the NoN-Conformist, Maverick Greeks. The FYRoM cause ended up to be a lost cause...those who invested in it lost heavily, big time!

The Neo-Ottoman cause: An indulgent endeavour on behalf of the same anti-Hellenic political groupings to establish Turkey as the Neo-Ottoman Controller of the Balkans...a troubled region of Europe the West never really controlled in any real directive sense. The Neo-Ottoman cause is going the same way as FYRoM, it is ending up to be a lost cause.

Greeks have survived the worst kind of racist national-character onslaughts inflicted on them by those anti-Hellenic Western political factions in order they get their way.

But look...2014:Hellenic Revival Year - Greece is on the up!

With FYRoM isolated, and with Turkey now being dumped on...it leaves the field wide open for Greece to exert influence in the Haemus [Greek] peninsula. Haemus-wide Hellenic ideas shall once again cover over the whole peninsula.

The Balkans: Europes wildest frontier shall revert back to native control of it's destiny. Meddling...whether Hermannic, Turkic, Anglo, Franco or Slavic have all proven futile - The Haemus is crying out to revert back to the peninsulas native-roots ethnogenic origins.


Anonymous said...

Macedonian Identity started off as Hellenic. Only FYRoM...a newly established Slavic-speaking country disputes it. FYRoM does not recognize the Greek-Hellenic Identity of the ancient-Macedonians, nor does it acknowledge Alexander the Great as the ancient-Greek King of Macedon. In FYRoM, the children there learn about the Proto-Slavic origin of Macedonians where Alexander the Great becomes Aleksandar Veliki - the first Czar of the Slavs.

When asked to recognize Alexander the Great as the Greek King of Macedon...FYRoM South-Slavs refuse to do that, citing some homegrown pseudo-historical text's which depict and illustrate him as the first Czar of the Slavs.

When asked to acknowledge ancient-Macedonia as a Centum-Greek speaking Hellenic Kingdom...FYRoM South-Slavs refuse to do that as well, citing some homegrown pseudo-historical narrative which depicts the ancient-Kingdom of Macedon as a barbarian Greek-hating Kingdom that ruled over ancient-Hellas.

FYRoM does not recognize Macedonia as being integral to the Greek World or having long history associated with Hellenism, or being blood related with the rest of the Hellenic-Tribes. FYRoM bluntly refuses to recognize Macedonians as Centum Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples.

Greeks cannot transfer Macedonian Identity over to FYRoM in order they use it for sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity.

Haemus-Native regional-tribal Identities do not migrate across ethnic-racial boundaries unless absorbed into the host native culture. Macedonian Identity cannot make the leap from Hellenic to Slavic the way FYRoM wants it to.

Haemus-Native regional-tribal Identities do not jump across ethnic-racial boundaries nor do they migrate over cultural linguistic ones. The Greek-Hellenic Identity of the ancient-Macedonians cannot transfer to Slavic on the will or say so of some FYRoM South-Slavs in search of National Identity.

Macedonia Identity is not transferable!

Macedonians have always been Centum Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples - a regional historical people-group of ethnic-Greek stock...from since the times of King Karanus 778-808 BC.

Anonymous said...

Macedonia:Name Dispute Politically Motivated!

The peoples of FYRoM are free to choose any name they like for their newly emergent country, but why choose the Macedonian name. FYRoM is not Macedonia geographically and the peoples there are Slavic, at least in culture and in speech...so why go for a name that is unsuitable geographically, demographically and philologically - unless there are political motives behind that decision!

Is it freedom - to rename ancient-Paeonia to 'Republic of Macedonia'?

Is it freedom - to name a hybrid mixed Serbo-Bulgarian language to 'Macedonian-language'?

Politics comes into play here - those actions were politically motivated actions, taken in 1944 and 1945 respectively!

Country-Names generate Nationality. Language-Names generate Ethnicity - Comrade Jozep Broz Tito knew that, when he created the Peoples Republic of Macedonia in 1945.

The peoples of FYRoM are free to chose any name they like for their newly established country but the rest of the World is also free to judge them on that choice!

FYRoM is not Macedonia geographically and the peoples their are Slavic. Macedonians on the other hand, live in the same place, walking and talking Greek-style for >3 Millenniums, FYRoM cannot compete with that fact. Evidently, FYRoM underestimated the international communities collective intelligence on matters Macedonian.

When one investigates further, we find that the Macedonian name was actually imposed on the Varder province of South-Serbia in 1945...the Bulgarian-speaking peoples there did not have a choice in the matter. Language name was imposed also, there was no Macedonian-language in the Slavic-World before 1944.

When one becomes learned on on these things it becomes apparent that FYRoM does have the political right to name itself the way of the peoples chosing...however, Morals and Ethics come into play here! Why excercize that right in the first place, to name your country after an ancient and archaich, Greek-Hellenic, regional-tribal name - a name that is so deeply rooted in Hellenism the Hellenic-peoples want to keep it in the Greek domain.

When FYRoM fights to make the Macedonian Name their sovereign state-name, a name they would then use for Nationality, Language and Ethnicity, things become sinister and unclear - how should the Greeks react to that provocation.

Anonymous said...

The peoples of FYRoM are Slavic for 1,400 years now, and Macedonian, for just 69 of them...from since the creation of the Peoples Republic of Macedonia in 1945.
The peoples of FYRoM have been speaking Bulgarian for 1,400 years and Makedonski for just 70 of them...from since the creation of the Makedonski-language in 1944.

The Draguvites-tribe and the Berzites-tribe are FYRoM's closest Slavic relatives, their ancestral-forebears, but they hardly get a mention in the history and heritage of this young, fledgling, recently established Balkan country.

From since the top-end of the 6th Century AD until now, many years have passed...for 1,333 of those years, the peoples of FYRoM were perfectly happy to affiliate to the Bulgarian ethnos. For 1,332 of those years, they spoke Bulgarian and self-Identified the same. There is no mistake, no confusion and no doubt, the peoples of FYRoM are Slavic in all the ways that matter!

When FYRoM's Slavic ancestors first settled the Greco-Roman world, they did not come in as Macedonians...they came in as Draguvites and as Berzites, along with the Sagudates, the Velegizites, the Zagorites and the Ezerites, and many more besides.

It took a long time for the Slavic-tribes to form nations in their own right - the first such entity to do so was Bulgaria. In all their dealings with Slavs, the Medievil Byzantine Emperors always referred to them as Vulgari meaning Bulgarians. The oldest known Slavic Nation in the Haemus Greek peninsula is Bulgaria.

On the other hand - The peoples of Macedonia in Northernmost Greece have been Centum-Greek speakers for >3 Milleniums and Hellenic for the same!

Macedonians have always been Centum-Greek speaking Hellenic-peoples - a regional historical people-group of ethnic-Greek stock - What does FYRoM have to do with Macedonians ?

Anonymous said...

Aleksandar Veliki Makedonski - The first Czar of the Slavs...Yeah right!

Only in the minds of some sick and twisted Slavists from the old-Yugoslavia who spent a lifetime indoctrinated on Makedonism, a now outdated Ideology which promoted Proto-Slavic origins for Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity.

Nation building in the FYRoM case is probably the most crudest most shabbiest example ever undertaken by a modern-country wanting one...ever since the concept of the Nation-State became the political-entity of choice for the replacement of old-defunct, expired Empires. Imperialism simply gives way to Nationalism if Nationalism is left to fester unchecked and unchallenged.

Sure, the name dispute between FYRoM and Greece is petty, until that is, you find your name being used without your consent, and in ways which undermine your fraternal links to it and cultural-historic ties also.

A dispute over a name may seem petty, trivial, ridiculous and unimportant, but only to the ignorant - because only ignorance gives way to expediancy. FYRoM attempts to usurp the Macedonian-name in order to apply it to Slavic-speaking peoples who's Serbo-Bulgarian ancestors did not know this name when they first settled the Greco-Roman world at the top-end of the 6th Century A.D.

FYRoM attempts to usurp an ancient-Greek peoples regional-tribal name in order to use it for National-Identity, under the banner of the United Nations Charter of Human Rights! They do it because they have inviolable right to choose any name they like for country-name...sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity.

The way FYRoM does it is not a Right but an Abuse! FYRoM abuses the Macedonian name...using it in ways it was never designed to be used.

Macedonians have existed in the same place speaking Centum-Greek, walking and talking Greek-style for >3 Millenniums. Their name belongs in the Greek domain. That Identity belongs to Greek heritage. Hands Off!


Anonymous said...

Greeks, Armenians, Jews, Persians, Chinese and Japanese could be cited for being prime-examples of ethnic continuity, since, despite massive cultural changes over the centuries, certain key identifying components such as (i) name,(ii) language,(iii) customs,(iv) religious community and (v) territorial association - have been retained. All of those identfying factors have been broadly maintained and reproduced for millennia.

So FYRoM competes with Greece for access to Macedonian-Identity!

Satem Slavic-speakers from FYRoM vye and compete with Centum Hellenic-speakers from Greece over the ethnic-racial, cultural and linguistic Identity of Macedonians when Macedonians were in cultural-linguistic trajectory of the Greek-Hellenic World for millennia.

Who is Yanking Who's Leg!- You Decide ?

Anonymous said...

Macedonian loyalty towards Hellenism and other Greeks is actually measurable. It is calculated in the Millenniums!

Macedonians have been loyal to Hellenism for >3 Millenniums now...Macedonians are the Greeks that continue to practice their >3 Millennia old self-determination right in the same tradition as their regional historical ancestors.

Fact: Macedonians have remained loyal to Hellenism for more than three millenniums now.

Macedonians are proud to have retained that Centum-Greek language and that Hellenic-culture which ultimately links them back to that civilization and to that campaign their ancestors initiated to expand Hellenism, the Greek-Hellenic Language, Knowledge and Culture to the farthestmost regions of the then known ancient-world.

FYRoM competes with Greece over these things!

FYRoM competes with Greece over access-rights to ancient-Macedonian Identity...a long established Greek-Identity rooted in Hellenism.

FYRoM competes with Greece over historical hero-figures long attributed to Hellas and the ancient-Greek World.

FYRoM competes with Greece over the cultural and hereditary rights of ancient-Macedon. An inheritance bestowed on Greece, the Hellenic Republic, for being the sole and legal cultural inheritor of the medievil Byzantine Eastern-Roman Empire...and everything that stems from that!

Anonymous said...

Macedonian Identity on South-Slavs can only be attributed to them on regional basis, by virtue of latin-Roman geography and naming conventions. Today, the geographic region of Macedonia straddles over more than 3 countries. Greece retains 51% of this geographic region. FYRoM retains 38%. Bulgaria 10%. Albania 1%.

The ancient-Kingdom of Macedon is situated almost entirely in the Greek portion of geographic-Macedonia, but for a tiny slither of it, which is located in the Bitola region of south-FYRoM.

The latin-Romans distinguished Macedonia-Prima from Macedonia Secunda Salutaris by keeping Prima-Macedonia Greek seperate and distinct, in recognition of the ancient-Macedonians Hellenic Identity.

FYRoM is Macedonia II Salutaris according to latin-Roman geography regarding administrative districts - seperate from Macedonia-Prima. FYRoM is the Second-Macedonia, or Beneficial-Macedonia in this Naming-Dispute scenario.

Interbreeding [[by force][by free will]] between Byzantine Greco-Romans and the newly settled 6th Century AD Slavic-Tribes did occur...this is undeniable, reflected in the genetic signature of the Southernmost Slavs in closest proximity to Greeks.

Slavic-speakers carrying Haemus-Native E1b1b, J2 haplogroups differ from Polish-Slavs and Russian-Slavs in morphology and in mentality...Slavs in name only, not in substance.

Slavicized E1b1b J2 Haemus-Natives could Re-Hellenize if Macedonian Identity means that much to them!

The fact remains...Centum-Greek speaking Macedonians exist in the same place for >3 Millenniums now, and they continue to practice their self-determination right in the tradition of their regional historical ancestors - next to them, other Macedonians can only come second.

FYRoM is Macedonia Secunda according to latin-Roman geography...this is the closest they get to Macedonia-Prima - the First, Proto, Top of the Chain Macedonia.

Macedonian Identity is too far rooted in Hellenism to be contested - FYRoM knows that now!

Anonymous said...

Macedonia:Greeks and the FYRoM Doctrine.

Continuity always follows the path of least resistance. The Greeks claim cultural and linguistic continuity to previous generations of Greeks on that basis. Demographically and geographically, the record shows that Centum Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples have existed in the same places, from since >3 Millenniums into the past.

Greeks, like the Armenians, the Jews, the Persians, the Hindus, the Chinese, and the Japanese could be cited as prime examples of ethnic continuity, since, despite massive cultural changes over the centuries, they have still retained certain key identifying components...such as their name, their language, their customs, their religious community and territorial association. All of these key identifying factors have been broadly maintained and reproduced for millennia. Although fragmented, ethnic-continuity and cultural-linguistic continuity is still discernible in all those people-groups cited above. Their histories and their heritages cannot be rubbished or bismerched by modern-people groups claiming parts of their historical legacies.

FYRoM claims Alexander the Great for their ancestor. The Slavic-speaking peoples their claim descendancy from the Macedonians of old. FYRoM competes with Greece over historical matters and refuses to recognize Greece being the sole and legal heir and inheritor of the ancient-Macedonian-lagacy. FYRoM refuses to acknowledge modern-Greeks having demographic, geographic, biological, cultural, and linguistic relatedness to ancient-Greeks. FYRoM claims that Greeks do not exist...according to FYRoM doctrine: Greeks were created by the West in 1821. Greeks and the West stole the history and heritage of the Slavs in order to cheat Slavdom from it's true history and heritage in the Haemus [Greek] peninsula, which they equate to Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity.

Between Slavdom and Turan stands Hellenism - the host culture in the Haemus [Greek] peninsula. Greeks cannot progress or go forward with mindsets like this for neighbours! Greeks should not have to defend and protect the Western-Worlds Cultural Historical Narrative alone...our Western partners and European Cousins should protect it too!

If there were No Greeks around in the world today, to claim the history and heritage of the ancient-Hellenic peoples - The Macedonian Name, Identity, History, Heritage and Legacy would still be attributed to them.

The international academic community would still be squaring up to political ambitions and expediancies...FYRoM would still be facing the same challenges from the same groups of peoples, minus the Greeks ofcourse, because in this scenario they don't exist, according to FYRoM doctrine.

Anonymous said...

Macedonian Identity is Hellenic - It has been this way for >3 Millenniums now.

FYRoM's Identity is South-Slavic - ask Slavdom...the Slavic Collective of Peoples.

Names can be adopted, and imposed, but not Identity!

Macedonian Identity was cast and set in the Hellennic mould more than three millenniums ago...from since the days of King Karanus 778-808 BC.

The Macedonian name belongs in the Greek domain...Macedonian Identity belongs to Greek heritage.

FYRoM has adopted the Macedonian name for country-name, but taken it 4 steps further. FYRoM utilises that name for (i) sovereign state-name, (ii) nationality, (iii) language and (iv) ethnicity - Identity factors which do not bode well for South-Slavs.

Identity once cast and set, stays with the people-group(s) that created it in the first place. Identity is for life, passing-onwards to the next generations.

For as long as Greeks exist practicing their self-determination right in the tradition of their regional historical ancestors...no other Macedonians can exist next door to them.

Identity is not transferable!

FYRoM has no choice but to differentiate itself from the Macedonian Identity it covets - that Identity belongs to Hellenism and Greek heritage

Anonymous said...

The Centum-Greek language and Hellenism...the cultural traditions and religious beliefs of the Greeks defines Macedonians for more than three millenniums now. Macedonians are self-determined Greeks from since the days of King Karanus 778-808 BC. Macedonians are just one of >230 ancient-Greek groups, tribes and Kingdoms that subscribed to Hellenism. Common to all of them was their heightened sense of shared Identity. The idea they belonged to a common Hellenic collective was strong in all of the Hellenic-Tribes. Something that was cast and set in the Hellenic mould more than three millenniums ago stays Hellenic...Identity is not transferable!

If there were No Greeks today to claim the history and heritage of ancient-Hellas...Macedonian Identity would still be confined to Hellenism, attributed to the Hellenic world, assigned to the Greek-Hellenic Collective of peoples. The Macedonian name belongs in the Greek domain...Macedonian Identity belongs to Greek heritage - regardless whether Greeks exist or not.

Names can be adopted and imposed but not Identities. Identity is inherited, something that is passed-on, onward-transmitted, from one ethnogenic cultural-linguistic generation to the next one. People-Names and Place-Names form Identity. Language and culture make it meaningful. Religion makes it specific. Identity is the catalyst which binds all of those elements together. Numerous factors combine to form shared-Identity - Macedonians combined and shared theirs with the rest of the Greeks.

The people that self-determine Macedonian today remain loyal to Hellenism - walking and talking in the tradition of their regional historical ancestors for >3 millenniums now. No other Macedonians can exist next door to them.

Whether the Macedonian name was adopted or imposed on FYRoM is a side issue. The main question is one of identity. Macedonian Identity is too far rooted in Hellenism to be contested. FYRoM acquired the [[adopted][imposed]] Macedonian name for country-name in 1945, inside the confines of Federated Yugoslavia. Greek objections at the time were overuled. FYRoM now, has taken that acquired name 4 stages further...to sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity - against all the rules governing ethnography, demography and philology.

FYRoM Identity cannot be Macedonian...that Identity is taken, assigned to Hellenism. In reality FYRoM Identity is South-Slavic, reflected in the peoples language and parent-ethnicity. In FYRoM live Slavic-speaking Macedonians with history and heritage to match.

Anonymous said...

Macedonian-Identity discussed simply and honestly!

Identity is layered - members of the human race live on planet earth, on continents, or on Islands, in geographical locations, bearing place-names from the people-groups that created them in the first place.

In long-string format description, starting from the most basic Identity factor, we begin with People-Name, then Place-Name, then Language-Name, then Geographical location, then Continent or Island, ending with Planet Earth. But we know...Identity is much more detailed than this, from the example given above! Culture and Religion should be listed somewhere in that chain of Identity factors.

Parent-Ethnicity + Regional Provincial Affiliation = Basic Identity.

People-Names + Place-Names = Strong Identity Factors.

Culture + Language make Identity Meaningful.

Religion, plus all of the above make Identity Specific.

To keep things simple and understandable, lets start off with prime example describing basic Identity. Parent-Ethnicity + Regional Provincial Affiliation = Greek-Macedonian, for good example. Identity at it's most basic level, understood this way on universal basis! In FYRoM, excluding Albanians, the Parent-Ethnicity there is Slavic, which gives us Slav-Macedonian for another example.

Poor example for Identity is this one: where Slavic-speaking ex-Yugoslavs describe themselves as Macedonian-speaking Macedonians from Macedonia! The Idea that this Identity string could be used as proof of Identity got shot down in flames the day ethnographers, demographers and philologists placed those peoples in the Southern-Slavic collective, alongside Serbians, Croatians and Bulgarians.

Basic Identity discussed honestly...in honest fashion!

FYRoM is inextricably linked to the Slavic Collective of Peoples with Slavic-Identity to match. Macedonians are inextricably linked to the Greek Collective of Peoples with Hellenic-Identity to match.

Whether the Macedonian Name was adopted or imposed on FYRoM is a side issue...the point is, FYRoM cannot espouse Macedonian Identity based on a technicality, where country-name generates nationality and language-name generates ethnicity. Names can be adopted or imposed but not Identity!
Macedonian Identity is too far rooted in Hellenism to be contested.

Identity at it's most basic takes into account 2 prime factors...Parent-Ethnicity followed by Regional Provincial Affiliation, making the peoples of FYRoM Slav-Macedonians in basic level Identity!

Anonymous said...

Names can be adopted, and imposed...but not Identity. Macedonian Identity on FYRoM is an indulgence! FYRoM Identity is Slavic - the two are inextricably linked. Only a hardened propagandist, or a severely brainwashed individual would equate FYRoM to Macedonia and the Slavs there to the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity.

Macedonian Identity is Hellenic - the two are inextricably linked. Macedonians are the Greeks that continue to practice their self-determination right in the tradition of their regional historical ancestors. Macedonians have been walking and talking Greek-style for >3 Millenniums...from since the days of King Karanus 778-808 BC.

The Macedonian name belongs in the Greek domain. Macedonian Identity belongs to Greek heritage - True, even if there were no Greeks to claim those things. Applying those things to FYRoM...a Slavic country, is pure political-indulgence!

People-Names belong to the people-groups that created them in the first place...if not by copyright then by acknowledgement and recognition at least.

Macedonian Identity is Hellenic - the mould was cast and set >3 Millenniums ago. Identity is not transferable. Root-Identity does not cross-over ethnic-racial, cultural-linguistic boundaries...it stays with the people-group(s) that created it in the place.

Macedonians are the Greeks that continue to practice their self-determination right in the tradition of their regional historical ancestors.

FYRoM should recognize and acknowledge that the name they adopted for country-name belongs in the Greek domain, and the Identity that is associated with it belongs to Greek heritage. FYRoM cannot take an adopted name to the levels of Nationality, Language and Ethnicity.

Anonymous said...

With the FYRoM cause shelved for lack of support, and with the Neo Ottoman Project now in tatters due to Turkish divergent political maneuvers, the Haemus [Greek] peninsula is being relooked at...reassessed, in light of the recent upheavals which have arisen in the Ukraine. Western influences in the Balkans were always very minimal and always channelled through Greece or Turkey.

For various reasons, maverick Greece fell out of favour with the West, leaving only one channel open in which to convey western security-Ideas and political-influences. The Neo Ottoman Project was born. Turkey would become controller of the Balkans again, this time, with Western support. The transformation of Turkey into a dynamic western-style manufacturing powerhouse saw Western, Israeli and Arabic FDI funds pour into the economy. Within a decade Turkey developed fast as a modern [Islamic] country fully compatible with western democratic principles, a model that could be exported, mimmicked by other Islamic countries. Then it all went pear-shaped!

Turkey fell-out with Israel and diverged far away from the Western line, a path that would have seen the country take on controller-status for the Balkans. The Neo Ottoman Project died a death similar to the demise of the FYRoM Project, a cause that envisaged the setting-up of NoN-Greek, Slavic-speaking Macedonian Nation. FYRoM, with Albania, Kosovo and Bosnia-Hertzegovina closely aligned to Neo Ottoman Turkey in the EU, would have transformed the Balkans - but it was not to be!

Western mind-architects for some reason, have time-served habits for taking on anti-Hellenic sub-contractors to plan for them...In the Balkans, FYRoM and Turkey come to mind here. That the Ideas of these two anti-Hellenic states could be elevated in geo-strategic importance, above those of Greece showed complete disrespect to the Hellenic presence in the peninsula of it's birth. Sponsoring anti-Hellenic entities promoting anti-Hellenic Ideas, in the Haemus [Greek] peninsula...showed a complete disconnect between some Western mind-architects and the Hellenic vision for this part of Europe.

The failure of the FYRoM cause and the Neo Ottoman Project has presented the West with a predicament. How to develop the Balkans...who's Ideas to take onboard and in which direction to take them. So Greek Ideas make a come back - in a region of the world where Greek thought, wisdom and sapience always prevailed.

Anonymous said...

Macedonians are the northenmost Greeks. To the east of them, Thracians. To the north of them, Paeonians. To the west of the Macedonians and north of the Paeonians, Illyrians. These were the paleo-native peoples of the Haemus peninsula in antiquity.

From the danube river southwards, Hellenic culture prevailed. Thracians Hellenized willingly and voluntarily, and so did some Illyrians. Paeonians came into the Hellenic world as brother-peoples, a sister nation.

The Haemus peninsula became known as the Greek peninsula, for the dominance and resiliance of Hellenism, the host culture, prevailed there for centuries until the coming of the Romans. After the latin-Roman conquests of the Haemus and the subsequent political administrative Romanization of the area, the Paeonian line stayed loyal to the native host culture, that is to say, stayed Greek, in speech, in culture, and tradition.

The demise of latin-Roman Imperial influences in the east gives way to Greco-Roman ones. The Haemus [Greek] peninsula now hosts the empire of the Eastern Romans. Constantinopolis becomes the new Rome and Greek Orthodox Christendom becomes the religion of the Byzantine empire.

Lest we forget...FYRoM sits on Paeonian soil.

In order to preserve historical integrity, the coming of the Slavs to the Haemus [Greek] peninsula is recorded at 6th Century AD, after the Goths and after the Huns. FYRoM is not Macedonia and people-dynamics dictate that FYRoM is Slavic now, in speech and in genous, in culture and tradition, but lets not forget that FYRoM's Pre-Slavic population was Greco-Roman, with culture and loyalties to match.

Anonymous said...

Macedonia: FYRoM Aspirations Pitted Against Western Expectations

Evidently, FYRoM is more interested in changing the Western Worlds Cultural Historical Narrative rather than making alteration to it's Country-Name...an alteration that would see it fulfill it's aspirations.

The West fully expected FYRoM to integrate rapidly into the Western worlds most prestigious economic and security structures of the EU and NATO. Bringing FYRoM into the Euro-Atlantic security zone and paving the way for it's economic integration into the European Union were priorities designed to convert FYRoM into the shining example of ethnic-tolerance, the template from which could be emulated through-out the troubled western-balkans, but alas, it was not to be...FYRoM let everybody down. Evidently FYRoM had other priorities!

FYRoM's western backers, benefactors, sympathizers and supporters ploughed-in so many resources there, so much time effort and energy, spent to convert FYRoM, to make it the equivalent of 'Switzerland in the Balkans' that would have seen this newly established country emerge as a beacon of hope, a bastion of free-speech, where free-press, free-market economics, ethnic-tolerance and social-cohesion was bolstered by western-style democracy, the kind of democratic values and principles that were found commonly practiced in the Euro-Atlantic area, the economic and security area FYRoM made clear, it aspired to join.

FYRoM's aspirations did not meet Western expectations. The West expected more from FYRoM! From the Western point of view: FYRoM said all the right things in order to solicit sympathy and support, but did precious little to meet expectations.

Conclusion: FYRoM duped the West...that is why the West keeps FYRoM at arms length, at a distance, from the western-worlds most prestigious economic and security structures of the EU and NATO.

Anonymous said...

FYRoM is more interested in rewriting the western worlds cultural historical narrative than it is in joing the EU and NATO.

De-recognition might be the only way to get the name dispute resolved. It was a mistake to recognise FYRoM as the "Republic of Macedonia", the reason(s) for doing so was based on poor Ill thought-out, substandard, flawed advice. On November 4, 2004, two days after the re-election of ex-President George W. Bush, his administration unilaterally recognized an ex-Yugoslav republic as the “Republic of Macedonia.” The fall-out from that ill though-out decision is still with us today, manifested in a name dispute that is still ongoing >2 decades. With or without good intentions, the advice panel issued George poor, ill thought-out advice, totally disregarding the international academic community, they prepared to defy classicist-historian scholars in order to press ahead with recognition, at the expense and exclusion of Greek concerns.

Greece, a staunch and loyal long-time member of the EU and Nato was trampled upon in order that US policy in the Balkans prevails. US recognition paved the way for others to follow suite, and from since 2004, FYRoM has raised untold monuments to ancient-Macedonians, built enormous structures in their name and use the Macedonian name in ways which detach it from it's Hellenic roots and ethnogenic origins.

FYRoM uses the Macedonian name for country-name...sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity. The Slavic-speaking peoples there now see themselves as Macedonians in the ethnic-racial sense and cultural-linguistic sense. I am Macedonian because I speak Macedonian and live in Macedonia, this is the mindset there, the mode of the peoples thinking. They see themselves as Macedonians, Greeks like Ethiopians, Greece as the enemy and Hellenism as a loaded word, beyond hate - the legacy of that poor, substandard, ill thought-out flawed advice!

I say: FYRoM abused the right of self-determination...played on Western sympathies to gain recognition. From since recognition, FYRoM has shown more interest in rewriting the Western worlds cultural historical narrative than interest in joining the EU and NATO.

Human rights and the rights of modern-peoples to self-determine as they wish, is no longer considered viable, or even appropriate, in the face of strong academic arguments favouring the rights of native autochthonous peoples. Macedonians are the Greeks that continue to practice their self-determination right in the tradition of their regional historical ancestors. Human rights exist for everyone...Slavic-speakers wanting to Identify with Macedonia and Macedonians infringes on the rights of the native Greek-speakers. The people of FYRoM declaring themselves 'Macedeonians' is problematic and confusing, Macedonian Identity already exists, it is native and Greek.

Macedonia(n): When this Name is used, it is used to refer to Centum Greek-speaking Hellenic peoples. FYRoM South-Slavs cannot use this name for country-name...sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity.

Anonymous said...

The ancient-kingdom of Macedon was home to Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples, a cultural historical people-group of ethnic-Greek stock. Macedonians speak Centum-Greek from since >3 Millenniums. What kind of Macedonians can the Slavic-speakers of FYRoM be, in contention to those historical facts, these academic reference-points. That Macedonians spoke Greek, wrote Greek, walked and talked Greek, entertained themselves Greek-style, at Greek theatre, from since the days of King Karanus, is proof beyond contention that FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs cannot espouse the same Macedonian Identity the way it is represented in the Western worlds cultural historical narrative. The brutal truth is that they are not Macedonians, at least, not in the Greek sense of that word. So, to be clear: Macedonia(n)...When this term is used, it is used to describe Centum Greek-speakers from northern Greece - Not Satem Slavic-speakers from FYRoM.

By a quirkiness from the human rights charter, newly emerging countries have right to name themselves as they wish, the way they see fit, by a name of the peoples choosing, so FYRoM opted for the name 'Republic of Macedonia' exercizing it's self-determination right. The point here is this: FYRoM is not Macedonia and the peoples there are Slavic, in genous and in speech, and in all the ways that distinguish Slavs from non Slavs. Greece has historic rights to defend and a cultural inheritance to protect, so what to do ?

Clearly, awarding FYRoM recognition in November 2004 was a mistake...a big one, based on poor substandard, ill thought-out advice. Derecognition as a way forward may make FYRoM pause in order and take stock, to see where it's best interests and future lay.

What is even more clear is this: The West now curse the day they allowed FYRoM to dupe them. FYRoM is seen as having abused the UN charter of human rights by naming itself after a politically charged country-name...a name they knew full-well and in advance would clash and conflict with the neighbourhood, and with the Western worlds cultural historical heritage. That FYRoM has taken the Macedonian name 4 stages further, to the levels of Sovereign state-name, Nationality, Language and Ethnicity has further incensed the West making it crystal clear, that FYRoM was always more interested in changing the Western worlds cultural historical narrative than altering it's name slightly to enable the country to fulfill it's pre-stated and long time aspirations to join the EU and NATO

Anonymous said...

FYRoM's Macedonian-Identity left undistinguished impacts on the peoples perceiption of themselves. The youth there now identify more with ancient-Macedonians than with the current contemporary Slavic identity of their forebears. The leapfrog back to ancient identity is a direct consequence of recognition. FYRoM attained recognition in November 2004, when ex-President Bush acted on poorly-issued, ill thought-out, substandard, ill-judged advice...flawed on many academic deciplines, not least,(i) geography,(ii) ethnology,(iii) demography (iv) history...and more!

Had that advice been better researched before it was issued, GW Bush would never have recognized Paeonia as Macedonia or confused Satem-Slavic speakers with Centum-Greek ones. On the basis of that poorly-researched, poorly-issued advice, FYRoM attained recognition as 'Republic of Macedonia' which prompted others to follow Americas lead. That decision caused classicist historian scholars to challenge political expediances...it pitted the academic realm against the political one. Academia won. Macedonian Identity is Hellenic on the basis, all the Kings of Macedon spoke Centum-Greek and all of them subscribed to Hellenism...the culture and religious beliefs of the Greeks - common folk, the same. In few words: It was Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples that created the Macedonian name in the first place. Academia had to teach those historical-facts to politicians.

FYRoM's Macedonian-Identity cannot stay undistinguished. For the sake of clarity and precision, and for historical and social cohesion...FYRoM must differentiate itself from Macedonian-Identity associated with ancient-Greece. The Macedonian name belongs in the Greek domain. Macedonian-Identity belongs to Greek heritage.

FYRoM adopted the Macedonian name for country-name and felt empowered by recognition to take it 4 stages further, to the levels of sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity...this is unnacceptable! Names can be adopted but not identities, identity is inherited. FYRoM's national identity cannot be Macedonian on that basis. Macedonian Identity has been in use and passed-on, from one ethnic-Greek generation to the next one for millennia. FYRoM's Macedonian-Identity must distinguish itself from Centum-Greek speakers who trace theirs back, in backward compatible fashion to the campaigne their ancestors initiated to liberate Greek City states in Asia-Minor under Persion domination. If FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs relate to this identity, they have option to re-Hellenize and Greeks have option to accept them.

Anonymous said...

Macedonians base their Identity on speaking Centum-Greek and subscribing to Hellenism. Macedonian-Identity is time-served Hellenic from since the times of thier first King...King Karanus 778-808 BC. Macedonian-Identity is strongly related to that campaign ancient-Macedonians initiated to free the Greek City-States in Asia-Minor that found themselves under Persian domination and control. Macedonians pride themselves on Alexander the Greats achievement. Macedonians rise to fame in the Greek world is based on that campaign. FYRoM South-Slavs have these historical-facts to contend with when explaining their so called Macedonian-Identity to the outside world.

So FYRoM vyes and competes with Greece over historical matters...not on any cultural historical or linguistic equilibrium but on the weakest most crudest of arguments - that they are Macedonians because they speak Macedonian and live in the Republic of Macedonia. Greeks have historic-rights to defend and rich cultural-inheritance to protect so Greeks insist that FYRoM disassociates and differentiates itself from the Macedonian-Identity which classicist-historian scholars associate with ancient-Greece.

FYRoM's so called Macedonian-Identity cannot remain undistinguished. Identity that is founded exclusively on the twin pillars of Country-Name and Language-Name rests on the weakest of foundations. An acquired adopted name coupled with a renamed satem-slavic language barely meet the first primordial steps required for transitional people-groups developing unique racial and ethnic Identity of their own. Macedonian because of country-name and Macedonian because of language-name does not form solid enough criteria for the development of national Identity, let alone support the scripting of national historical narrative that links this Identity back to the ancient-Macedonian one. FYRoM's so called Macedonian-Identity struggles to establish position because there is huge absence of linguistic, cultural and historical content...the void that it creates only Hellenic cultural historical material could fill.

FYRoM cannot sustain Macedonian-Identity based on the weakest of arguments, bolstered by hollow flimsy connections to country-name and language-name...Identity-facto rs acquired and not created are void of essence and substance. The Macedonian name was created by Centum-Greek speakers using Hellenic-language. Their name belongs in the Greek domain and their Identity belongs to Greek heritage. FYRoM has no choice now but to distinguish itself from Macedonians that have self-declared, self-Identified and self-determined Greek for >3 Millenniums.

Anonymous said...

Macedonia:FYRoM Owes The West Nothing TRUE or FALSE

FYRoM owes everything to the West. Without Western Recognition, FYRoM would not have emerged as a country in it's own right. The most precious thing FYRoM has is Western Recognition. The West invested a lot of time, effort and energy to integrate FYRoM into the Western worlds Euro-Atlantic economic and security umbrella. FYRoM let the side down. FYRoM let everybody down! The most precious thing FYRoM has, can be taken away just as easily as it was given...Recognition, as it turned out, was good only for FYRoM, bad for the West. Bad, in that FYRoM got what it wanted, the West got nothing.

The West asked for a compromise but none was forthcoming! The West shall ask for one more last time - The Onus is on FYRoM to compromise!

FYRoM's Macedonian-Identity cannot remain neutral...neither Slavic or Hellenic. Macedonian-Identity on FYRoM left undistinguished is where we are now, with FYRoM swinging between Slavic themes and Hellenic themes. Mixing and matching from both has resulted in developing botched, mismatched Identity. Contemporary Identity there is a blend of confusion, an imposition somewhere between ancient and medievil, with emphasis on the ancient. If FYRoM continues to develop it's national identity based on ancient-Greeks, then it should exercize the option to De-Slavicize Re-Hellenize.

If it is true, that the peoples of FYRoM are native autochthonous-peoples, peoples of the land, people that stayed put and never moved...if true, would make them Slavicized Byzantines, or Slavicized Romio. This is the best way to describe FYRoM's ancestors, Byzantines that stayed behind during the Slavic settlement period, in Slavic dominated areas. Slavicized Byzantines! Greek-speaking Romioi to be more precise. The line of dileanation marking out the latin-speaking Romanized areas from the Greek-speaking areas of the Haemus peninsula runs above the FYRoM boundary with Serbia. FYRoM remained a Greek-speaking area of Byzantium until the coming of the Slavs.

Evidently, the peoples of FYRoM Identify more with Macedonia and Macedonians than Slavs from the Steppe. They have option to Re-Hellenize on that basis, and Greeks have option to accept them. Anyway, how Slavic can E1b1b, J2, Slavic-speaking Haemus-Natives be, when compared to the R1a variety from Russia or Poland. Genes we know, tell only half the story...the half that is more native than Slavic should at least be given the opportunity to Re-Hellenize, if they wish to exercize that option. Being Slavic and Macedonian must be distinguishable from being Hellenic and Macedonian. The former should accept the latters right to historical-rights, cultural-inheritance and legacy endowment, if FYRoM chooses that option. With FYRoM De-Slavicized Re-Hellenized, the path towards developing collective-memories and Hellenic conciousness, will enable like-minded peoples there to connect themselves to the ancient-Greek world. The option is there to be exercized!

What is clear is this: Macedonian-Identity on FYRoM, cannot be left undistinguished

Anonymous said...

Self-adscription constitutes the criteria from which the invoking of rights derived from such ownership, might be considered on first-hand, first-instance, face-value level to be quasi-legitimate, pending dispute or contention. If I self-ascribe Macedonian, then that is what I am, and owning that Identity shall entitle me to receive recognition and obtain full inheritance rights, cultural historical and otherwise.

The fact that an individual or group of individuals can self-describe in the character of some ancient archaic bygone peoples, is reason enough on first-hand face-value basis, to consider them descendants. If I walk like a Macedonian and talk like a Macedonian, then that is what I am...I claim on quasi-legitimate basis, continuity on combination of any one, or all of these ethnic-racial, cultural and linguistic factors.

When Greeks self-ascribe, self-describe, self-determine and self-Identify Macedonian...they do it from autochthonous perspective. The United Nations recognizes the rights of indigenous populations. Native peoples have individual and collective right to maintain identity characteristics of their ancestors.

When FYRoM South-Slavs self-ascribe, self-describe, self-determine and self-Identity 'Macedonian'...they do it from Faux perspective - not the real thing! I am Macedonian because I speak Macedonian and live in Macedonia, coming from a FYRoM ex-Yugoslav this is just ambitious wishful thinking, just titular self-adscriptions without substance. The language is Satem-Slavic and the land was Paeonia in antiquity, Dardanian north from Skopje. Macedonian-Identity on FYRoM is uninherited, the peoples there did not inherit Macedonian-Identity from their Slavic ancestors, it was imposed on them by Communists.

Because FYRoM gained American recognition in November 2004, on the issuance of poor substandard, ill thought-out advice, there is nothing to stop FYRoM claiming Macedonian-Identity on ethnic-racial level or cultural-linguistic level...they do it anyway, unashamedly. They also claim cultural-inheritance, unashamedly. The legacy of that ill-judged decision to recognize FYRoM as Republic of Macedonia upset the International Academic Community...they came out in large numbers to defend the Western worlds cultural-historical narrative in order to preserve historical-cohesion. Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians remain Centum-Greek speaking Hellenic-peoples in that narrative but what will happen in the future - will the history books post-FYRoM independence support 2 Macedonian histories, with both Centum-Greek and Satem-Slavic speakers staking claim to one and same ancestors.

Those overpaid substandard advisors to ex-President Bush left us an uncosted political-legacy that cannot be resolved conventionally, through diplomacy. Experiance teaches us, that well managed disputes with entrenched positions cannot come to any fruitful conclusion. Recognition is the root cause of FYRoM's unwillingness to compromise, and the Hellenic Republics resolve to keep the Macedonian name in the Greek domain and Macedonian-Identity achored to Greek heritage. Greece has the moral and academic high ground - FYRoM has recognition...work that one out!

Anonymous said...

It is the victor that always writes the event-history. This saying is always cited by pseudo-historical propagandists as a form of justification to rationalize their scripting of alternate history. FYRoM history is a case in point. Pseudo-historians there scripted this newly established slavic statelet a national-history that rests on the twin-pillars of revisionism and pseudo-history. Slavist-Makedonists there use the argument above, to justify the scripting of their own versions of it.

FYRoM Makedonists scripted the country a national historical narrative so crude and so crass, it defies belief. The substance of it, and the content of it do not stand-up to scholarly or academic scrutiny. When the FYRoM version of history is scrutinized, it is found wanting. In the crudest of arguments, they reason, Greek-historians scripted themselves the history of Macedonia because the ancient-Greeks were always the victors, so they got to write the history first. We do know, that it is the victor that always writes the event-history. FYRoM argues that Macedonians were not Greek, so the Macedonian version of history was never scripted...only Greek versions of it exist.

Macedonians conquered Greece according to FYRoM, and they are Macedonian...so the 'Republic of Macedonia' has right to script the Macedonian version of history. Very simple, very basic, very crude and very crass, right! If the ancient-Macedonians were not Greek and they conquered Greece...that makes them the Victors. Victors always write the event-history, in this case it was Macedonian scholars and academics that wrote the event-history of Hellenic expansion eastwards to Asia and beyond. If Macedonians were not Greek - why did they write a Victors Version of it, a version that went down in history to become the mainstream version, the Western worlds cultural historical narrative to which everything in other peoples histories is referenced.

The Western worlds cultural-historical narrative is based on Macedonians being Centum Greek-speakers with affiliations towards Hellenism and fraternal kinship ties to other Greeks. FYRoM disputes the Western worlds cultural-historical narrative and contends the Macedonians were never Greek. According to FYRoM Slavists, Macedonians in antiquity were Proto-Slavs. This is the price the West is paying for awarding FYRoM recognition as 'Republic of Macedonia'...recognition that was American led and based on the issuance of poor, substandard, ill thought-out flawed advice, flawed at many many academic disciplines.

With recognition came rights...sovereign-rights. FYRoM learned to harness the potential of those rights, and uses them to full effect. FYRoM uses it's newly found status as an independent nation state to write it's own national history. FYRoM's national historical narrative humilates Greeks, belittles Hellenic contributions to world history and rubishes Greece, the Hellenic Republic. FYRoM's national history also humiliates the Western worlds cultural historical narrative..it doesn't recognize it in the first place.

The West awarded FYRoM recognition, and in response, FYRoM does not recognize the Western worlds cultural historical narrative...the mainstream version of history that bases it's civilization and cultural historical narrative on Macedonians being Centum Greek-speakers, with affiliations towards Hellenism and fraternal kinship ties to other Greeks.

The Wests relationship towards FYRoM is one sided - FYRoM got Recognition the West got Nothing, sept a long running name dispute, now in the early years of it's third decade.

Anonymous said...

Macedonia: Void of Hellenism

If for nothing else, then for cultural-historical cohesion - The Western worlds cultural historical narrative depends on FYRoM being Slavic and Macedonia being Hellenic. This is where the name-dispute between FYRoM and Greece has brought us...to the brink of rewriting the ancient history of Europe. History cannot support 2 versions of the Macedonia story, one Slavic and the other one Hellenic! In Europe we must all be on the same page, reading from one common historical narrative. European history books cannot cover uncoventional national-histories that clash and conflict with the academically accepted mainstream.

The Western worlds cultural-historical narrative depends on Macedonians being Centum Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples. Any shift or alteration from this academically accepted reference point would require consensus from International Academic Community. World-Academia is a scholarly-body of knowledge to be respected. According to their disseminations, Macedonians were intrinsic and integral to the ancient-Greek world, Hellenes in genous and in speech, and in all the other ways that determine Greeks from NoN-Greeks.

FYRoM scripted itself a National-Historical narrative that was so crude and so crass, it made Macedonians Proto-Slavs and Alexander the Great Aleksandar Veliki, the first Czar of the Slavs. FYRoM's national historical narrative went viral...more than 1001 revisionist Theories Ideas and Conjectures littered the internet explaining how ancient-Macedonians were not Greek but rather Proto-Slavs instead - This is what Western recognition encouraged FYRoM to do, rewrite Europes ancient history.

Until it dawned on Western political mind-architects...bad-mouthing Greeks, belittling Hellenism, down-playing Hellenic contributions to world history, all these things actually erode the Western worlds cultural historical narrative giving other narratives free-license to fill the void, to encroach in that vacuum. Afrocentric, Turanid and FYRoM-Slavist narratives went frenzy on Greeks whilst Greeces western-partners and european-cousins stood idley by, engaging in implicit manoeuvres to elevate the importance of Celto-Germanic contributions to Europen history, shifting the age of enlightenment to Charlamagne. European history did not start from Africans, Turks or Slavs...and the Celtic Germanic contributions came after the Greek and Roman ones. The Western worlds cultural historical narrative cannot be held hostage to anti-Hellenic mind-architects. Hellenic culture is culture of choice for the West...It is worth keeping, worth protecting and worth defending - Without it, what else is there to replace it ?

Anonymous said...

FYRoM is not Macedonia and the peoples there are Slavic! South-Slavs there live a pretentious life...on the will of those who govern them. To think of South-Slavs as Macedonians when they are actually Slavic is being pretentious in the extreme.To think of FYRoM as Macedonia and ex-Yugoslavs as Macedonians is being disgracefully ignorant of the Western worlds cultural historical narrative. Those who do it intentionally erode something from that long-established narrative...intentionally! Those who do it to downplay, belittle Hellenisms contributions to world history humiliate Greeks. Those who do it from ignorant perspective, damage [[ credibility ][ integrity ]] themselves in the face of the learned and the enlightened. Those who do these things with purpose and intention erode something from the Western worlds cultural historical heritage, leaving it open for Afrocentrists, Turanids and FYRoM Slavists to ridicule the Western worlds culture of choice. Observers witnessed how these erosive cultural threats were pushed to challenge Hellenisms position in the development of Western thought sapience and wisdom.

Western Civilization is based on Alexander the Great being the Greek King of Macedon and Macedonians being Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples. The Hellenisitic period of history is named thus in acknowledgement to Greeks spreading Hellenism, the Centum-Greek language, Greek-Knowledge and Wisdom to the far reaches of the eastern-world. Those who downplay, belittle these things with purpose are anti-Hellenic by default, anti-Western by design and intention.

To rid the West from it's culture of choice, what will replace it! Globalism maybe...but that is not culture, it is a way for Globalists to erode culture, erode individualism and erode freedom of thought, things on which Hellenism and early Greeks thrived. The Western world is not perfect and neither is is the culture on which it is founded, even after many Celto-Germanic refinements, but what is there to replace it - Really!

FYRoM Makedonism should be viewed as Cultural-Threat and in the same light as Afrocentric and Turanid Threats to Western Civilization. Spreading Turko African Slavist Culture only goes towards eroding the Western worlds cultural historical heriatge further, to the point where there is disconnect...and when that happens, something will have to come in to replace it, to fill the void.

Anonymous said...

Things never to mess with: People-Names, Place-Names, Peoples Intellectual Property, Cultural-Inheritance, Peoples Legacy Endowments. FYRoM messed with all of those things, primordial things which have been the root causes of arguments bickering and wars from since the earliest recollections of our common collective human memory. Human primordial logic dictates...Things which belong to me, you cannot touch, because they do not belong to you. That logic is still with us today!

In order to establish itself as a free and independent nation-state in it's own right, FYRoM messed with ancient-Greek people-names, messed with ancient-Greek place-names, messed with the intellectual-property of it's neighbours, messed with the cultural-inheritance of it's neighbours, messed with the legacy endowments of it's neighbours.
How can FYRoM not be in trouble doing those things when we know from history, from since our earliest human collective memory, that taking things which do not belong to you causes arguments bickering and war.

The disintigration of Yugoslavia spawned six new republics. FYRoM gained independence in September 1991. Between the governing Serbs and the ruling elite from Socialist Republic of Makedonija, it was decided to seperate. The condition and circumstance of those discussions are still clouded in mystery. Not one shot was fired, and there was no loss of life. The Socialist prefix was dropped and FYRoM stepped onto the world stage as Republic of Macedonia. Question: Was the Macedonian name discussed between them ? Serbs and Bulgarians know, the Macedonian name is ancient archaic Hellenic name. Did those discussions cover the implications for minor Slavic country using Greek name to ascribe with. Yugoslavs knew full-well and in advance, Greek reaction to Slavic country declaring independence self-ascribing Republic of Macedonia.

European people-names and place-names are important to the people-groups that created and originated those names in the first place.. The Macedonian name was created by Centum-Greek speakers. FYRoM took something which belongs to Greeks and presented it, as if it belongs to South-Slavs - a provocation, a cause for argument. We know that names can be adopted, recognition of origin though, and acknowledgement of creator would go a long way to dampen down the potency of any bickering over intellectual property ownership. FYRoM refuses to recognize Macedonian name as Greek name, or acknowledge Macedonia as ever belonging to the Greek world.

FYRoM covets Macedonian name for country-name...sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity. Identity factors which if legitimized, would make Slavs there Macedonians in ethnic-racial sense and cultural-linguistic sense. Country-name generates nationality. Language-name generates ethnicity. American-led recognition of FYRoM as Republic of Macedonia back in November 2004, was the worst ever presidential advice ever issued to any president of the USA in living memory. That poor substandard, academically flawed advice awarded FYRoM sovereign-rights. Now FYRoM utilizes those rights to their fullest potential claiming all things Macedonian, things which do not belong to South-Slavs - Macedonian Name, Identity, History, Heritage, Legacy.

FYRoM messes with People-Names, Place-Names, Peoples Intellectual-Property, Cultural-Inheritance, Peoples Legacy-Endowments...all because it can, on technical level. On the issuance of that ill-judged, ill thought-out advice issued to GW Bush, American-led recognition of FYRoM entitled the Slavs there to mess with Greeks and mess with the Western worlds cultural historical narrative...in that long established academically accredited narrative, Macedonians are Hellenic not Slavic.

Anonymous said...

Hellenes exist in the same places, in the Haemus [ Greek ] peninsula, outlasting Thracians and outliving Illyrians respectively. Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples have endured there for millenniums. Culture and heritage of indigenous populations should be protected. The UN recognizes the rights of autochthonous peoples to keep as close as possible the identity-characteristics of their ancestors. In the modern-age though, Greeks struggle to retain key important elements of their cultural-inheritance from prying forces that contest them.

FYRoM is a case in point where minor Slavic country recently established, vies to ascribe itself ancient-Greek name for country-name. FYRoM covets Macedonian name for sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity, kick-starting off a dispute with Greece that is now almost a generation old. The issue for Greeks is this: Macedon was Dorian-Greek Kingdom. Macedonians are recorded in classicist-history like protectors, defending northernmost extremities of ancient-Hellas against barbarian invasions incursions and attacks. Their name belongs in Greek domain and Macedonian-Identity belongs to Greek heritage. Greeks have right to keep as close as possible, the identity-characteristics of their ancestors.

Culture is the basis from which social-cohesion and civic-identity develops. Heritage is endowment received, passing onward to next generation. Greek cultural achievement is celebrated in the West. Protecting culture of choice against erosion is natural reaction to FYRoM cultural-threat. FYRoM along with Turkic and Albanian revisionists, attempt to rewrite the Western worlds cultural historical narrative. Macedonians become Proto-Slavs, Alexander the Great becomes Aleksandar Veliki first Czar of the Slavs. Turkics become ancient-Trojans, and Albanians become Illyrians. Between them, Slavist, Turanid and Albanian pseudo-historical revisionists rewrite the concise history of Europe completely erasing the Greeks from it. Greeks struggle to keep Hellenic culture alive in the peninsula of it's birth.

Greeks struggle to keep their history and heritage from being rubbished, bismerched. But Greeks should not have to shoulder that burden alone. Hellenic culture is the foundation on which Western culture is based. Until the Haemus peninsula learns to respect the indigenous native host culture. Greeks shall continue to struggle against hostile ones that try to erase it!

Anonymous said...

History wont be kind to FYRoM. Historians shall tell the FYRoM story from anti-Hellenic, anti-Western perspective. History shall record FYRoM as that minor Slavic country that when acquired independence, briefly posed a cultural threat to the Western worlds cultural historical narrative. The concise history of FYRoM will plot it's beginnings from Paeonia to Vardaska, to latest current name, Republic of Macedonia.

Demography wont be kind to FYRoM. Demographers shall tell the FYRoM story from anti-Hellenic, anti-Western perspective. Demography shall record that minor Slavic country FYRoM was once autochthnous Haemus Kingdom of Paeonia. Paonians Hellenized on interation with Macedonians, forever looked upon as brother people to Greeks going forward, until the Slavs settled there 6th Century AD.

Philology wont be kind to FYRoM. Philologists shall tell the FYRoM story from anti-Hellenic, anti-Western perspective. Philology shall record FYRoM as that minor Slavic country that when established independence, scripted itself a national historical narrative that was so anti-mainstream, it posed a cultural threat to the long-established cultural historical narrative of the West.

The FYRoM story is double-edged in that it exposed 2 root sources from whence anti-Hellenic, anti-Western propaganda emanated...one internal and western, the other one external, non-western. No more shall be said here because both sources have been compromised. Nobody of worth, from politics or the media talks about Greeks Greece or Hellenism the way they used to, like the frenzy days of heightened anti-Hellenic activity. Both sources have been squelched. One has disbanded, and the other one gone underground. The point to make is this: FYRoM was used by both to discredit Greeks to undermine Hellenism to elevate Germano-Celtic story from 8th Century AD. The age of enlightenment was to begin from common European ancestor Karalos Magnos, not from the ancient Greeks or Romans.

The most noteworthy observations to take from all of this is this: FYRoM's most potent propaganda against Greeks Greece and Hellenism, here I mean the academic supplementary materials were not written by homegrown FYRoM South-Slavs themselves, nor their diasporas...Black Athena is prime example, Paleolithic Continuity Theory is another example, Veneti Builders of Europe is another. Remember this, Afrocentric Theories, Turanid Theories, Slavist Theories, timely published to undermine and belittling Hellenic cultural contributions to world history were not written by Africans, Turkics or Slavics - The authors belong to those 2 root sources listed [4th paragraph] above.

Those who aided minor Slavic country FYRoM spread propaganda against Greece did it for higher ulterior motive. So the FYRoM story is sad story, one of being used and abused. The saddest thing though, there is no more use for FYRoM anymore. Greeks successfully thwarted each and every attempt to bismerch Greek history. Friends of Greeks, PhilHellenes and Grecophones successfully defend Hellenism, Hellenic cultural contributions to development of Western society. Every anti-Hellenic action invokes reaction, until the next one.

Anonymous said...

Ultimately, what does FYRoM aim to achieve by stubbornly refusing to recognize Macedon as ancient-Greek Kingdom and Macedonians as native-Haemus autochthonous population. Kingdom of Macedon inhabitants were North-Dorians, a sub-group of greater Hellenic people-group which counted more than 230 known ancient-Greek groups tribes and Kingdoms into it's collective. South-Dorians were the Spartans - Macedonians and Spartans derive from Dorian-Greeks, sub-group of Hellenes, native and autochthonous to the Haemus peninsula. Greeks have right to keep as close as possible the Identity-characteristics of their ancestors...protected in law under UN charter rules governing rights of autochthonous populations. FYRoM South-Slavs have to contend with this, when explaining their so called Macedonian-Identity to the outside world.

How can Greeks keep as close as possible, the Identity-characteristics of their ancestors when FYRoM vies against Greece contesting Macedonian-Identity on levels that defy academically accepted reference-points governing demography, archaelogy, philology, history and ethnology! FYRoM is Slavic, Macedonia is Hellenic...how can FYRoM contend with Greece the Identity of Macedonia and Macedonians on serious level when all Identity-factors reveal Macedonians to be native-Haemus, autochthonous and Greek.

FYRoM ofcourse, does not contend with Greece on serious level. Everything that is done there is done for show, pretentious bordering theatrical, designed to veneer Hellenic images there for presentational purposes...to show minor Slavic country having ancient archaic Identity that is native to the Haemus. Greeks would not have reacted so harshly to FYRoM recognizing Macedonian name as Greek name, or acknowledging ancient-Macedon as Greek Kingdom, or conceding that Alexander the Great was Greek King of Macedon - FYRoM ofcourse does non of these things but does the opposite instead! So here, it poses question Why ? Why does FYRoM not recognize Macedon as Greek Kingdom or Macedonians as Greeks belonging to Hellenic collective of peoples, same as the Spartans.

The answer ofcourse, is very simple...very crude but very simple - FYRoM doesn't have to! FYRoM does not have to do any of those things because it has already achieved what it set out to achieve from the very beginning. Recognition was the primary aim, to get recognized as Republic of Macedonia. FYRoM said all the right things and did all the right things, at a time when the Balkans were state of flux and very unstable. Greece was playing Maverick, in NATO but not fully in, in the West but not fully in, so FYRoM became focal point for anti-Hellenic western mind-architects to sketch Greece out of strategic planning and sketch FYRoM in, instead. FYRoM was recognized as Republic of Macedonia to spite Greece.

Ultimately, the FYRoM issue saw Greece drop it's Maverick stance to become fully integrated into West and Team NATO. Greece is good team player now, valued member, strategically sketched into future planning. FYRoM is no longer required, it's importance to the West has plummeted, depreciated significantly to lowest ever level. The name dispute still lingers though, but at least it is seen for what it is, doing more harm to FYRoM the longer it remains unresolved.

Anonymous said...

The name dispute between FYRoM and Greece is still on-going...now in the early years of it's third decade. The name dispute still lingers because of FYRoM. There is no incentive for FYRoM to compromise. The West awarded this minor Slavic country recognition on the proviso it followed through on stated intentions to integrate into Western economic and security structures. Western [ anti-Hellenic ] mind-architects sketched FYRoM into geo-strategic planning at the expense and exclusion of Greek concerns.

FYRoM is minor Slavic country recently established...gained independence 1991 in unusual way. Western mind-architects campaigned to remap the Balkans. Greek objections were overruled. Strategic planners saw advantage in having FYRoM Albania Kosovo Bosnia follow Turkish example in their relation to West. Greece was not in this picture. In fact, Greece was shat upon from great height, had it's image tarnished, it's national-character assassinated, it's history rubbished and it's heritage completely bismerched. Western [ anti-Hellenic ] mind-architects working against Greece to see poorly designed geo-strategic blue-print elevating Turkey to Neo-Ottoman Controller of Balkan aspirant countries, to see them integrate into Western economic and security structures ala Turkish style!

Nobody sat down to discuss cultural impact on Western society, absorbing poor [ ant-West ] Islamic orientated Balkan countries. Nobody sat down to discuss integration methodology. Nobody sat down to discuss the impact it would have on Western worlds cultural-historical heritage when the national-histories of these countries start to clash and conflict with the western worlds long-established cultural-historical narrative. We have seen the erosive effect FYRoM national-history has, when Slavs there stake claim to ancient-Macedonian legacy...should we prepare to have it eroded further. Greece gave the West cultural foundation, that foundation is being destabilized.

Introducing cultural shock-waves who's epicenters do not emanate from ancient-Athens or Rome can only shake the foundation on which Western Civilization is based. The Western worlds cultural historical narrative cannot absorb the inclusion of revisionism, where Slavic Macedonians, Turkic Trojans, Kosovo Illyrians, Albanian Thraco-Illyrians, Bosnian Illyrians or Slovenian Veneti get to script their national pseudo-historical revisionism unchallenged. The Western worlds cultural-heritage is legacy-endowment received, first from ancient-Athens and then Rome...those cultural contributions are to be celebrated not eroded or bismerched!

Anonymous said...

The Western worlds cultural foundation is based on early Greek culture. Hellenism proved to be strong dominant culture. Those in closest proximity to Greeks Hellenized willingly and voluntarily, subscribing to Hellenic Ideals and core values as they developed. Ancient-Greeks are accredited for laying down the foundational ground-work on which Western civilization is based. Hellenism's Ideals and core values have been adopted by the West, but what are they, what are these Hellenic Ideals and core values learned-peoples in western society hold so dear. Humanism, Idealism, Rationalism are prime examples, but there are more: Freedom, Democracy, Indivisualism, Self-Reliance, Seeking being guided by Truth, Seeking Ideal perfect beauty, Ethics and Standards, Education and the pursuit of universal knowledge...all of these factors could be viewed as reference-points on which early Greeks guided their thoughts and actions. So it's really not that surprising, Western Europeans seeing something of themselves in ancient-Greeks - that is why the concept of being descended from them is such a powerful one.

Greek culture has endured there in the Haemus-peninsula for millennia...a cultural linguistic space northern-Greeks proudly protected from barbarian invasion incursions and attacks. Macedonians are accredited for defending Hellenism. The Western worlds cultural-historical narrative rests on King Philip of Macedon protecting the northermost extremities of Hellenic world. His son Alexander the Great is accredited for spreading Hellenism, Greek culture, Greek-language, knowledge sapience and wisdom to the
orient and the farthest reaches of the eastern world. Greek cultural linguistic space expanded, Hellenism became universal culture - the rest is history.

The Western worlds long-established cultural-historical narrative rests on Macedonians being Centum-Greek speakers, Hellenic-peoples spreading Hellenism. Latin-speaking Romans saw them that way, they also saw something of themselves in ancient-Greeks...Roman-culture is Greek-culture refined - Roman jurisdiction, Greek wisdom form the basis on which Western society developed. Preserving historical-cohesion is necessary for protection of Western societies social-cohesion. Having come this far on Greco-Roman civilizational principles, Western society is now facing civilizational choice (i) to develop on same, or (ii) to develop on different cultural principles, Ideals and core values. For the latter to succeed necessitates the destruction of the former. The incremental erosion of Western worlds cultural historical narrative and heritage based on Greco-Roman civilizational principles began when FYRoM was awarded recognition as Republic of Macedonia.

November 2004, on the back of anti-Hellenic, anti-Western advice...poor, substandard, academically-flawed advice. GW Bush was advised to recognize minor Slavic country FYRoM as Republic of Macedonia. Nobody of worth, Political Diplomatic or Academic confuses Paeonia for Macedonia or ex-Yugoslavs for Macedonians, yet this ill-judged, ill thought-out advice was issued, paving the way for FYRoM to utilize sovereign rights to fullest possible potential. FYRoM now stakes claim to all things Macedonian - Name, Identity, History, Heritage, Legacy. Anti-Hellenic, anti-Western mind-architects started a campaign to erode the Western worlds cultural historical narrative in order to establish minor Slavic country as Republic of Macedonia. In their eyes, history is insignificant means nothing, like something to ridicule. In their eyes, important things are Money, Commerce and Trade cacooned protected in security umbrella. In their eyes, erasing Hellenic-Identity of Macedonia and Macedonians is first step to eroding Western worlds cultural foundation paving the way for new replacement culture. In their eyes, Global Monolithic Culture is promoted above and beyond time served culture of choice.

Anonymous said...

It took the most right-wing ultra-hawkish administration the United States of America ever had to recognize FYRoM as Republic of Macedonia. The most Capitalist, most fanatical 21st, Century American mind-architects issued advice that placed political-expediance above academic reference-points. Driven by economic-security concerns, flip-charted scenarios, geo-strategic concerns, audio-visual presentations, all produced to 21st, Century standard pitted against political backdrop where FYRoM was seen to be onside and Greece was not. Greece played maverick...FYRoM played nice!

The point here is this: Decisions were made based on advice issued. Both had consequences that went against the core fundamental civilizational-priciples Western society is based on. GW Bush decision to recognize FYRoM as Republic of Macedonia was based on poor-quality substandard advice...ill-judged, ill thought-out advice - academically flawed advice. If the advice issued was flawed, then so was the decision that precipitated it. Those who acted on poor-quality advice are not to blame as much as those who issued the advice in the first place. So the advice-panel assembled to advise GW Bush have a lot to answer for, their advice was responsible for prolonging a name-dispute that would not have lasted this long had they issued proper academically accredited advice to begin with.

The Western worlds champion is the USA. The West depends on successive American administrations taking decisions that protect the fabric of Western society, it means defending those civilizational-principles it is based on...erode those principles and you begin a process of destruction that will see the Wests core cultural foundation crumble. It is inconceivable that this is what was intended when in November 2004, GW Bush was [ poorly ] advised to recognize a minor Slavic country by a Greek-Hellenic name. FYRoM is not Macedonia and the peoples there are Slavic. Nobody of worth, political diplomatic or academic confuses Paeonia for Macedonia or ex-Yugoslavs for Macedonians. That advice panel assembled to advise GW Bush have a lot to answer for!

The Western worlds cultural foundation depends on Macedonians being Centum-Greek speakers and Alexander the Great spreading Hellenism. Any diversion from this long-established academic reference-point will erode the civilizational principles Western society is based on. That advice panel cannot be allowed to get away from something that is so fundamental to the West. Issuing academically-flawed advice whos consequences might profoundly affect our understanding of Western worlds long-established cultural historical narrative is [[ revisionism ][ pseudo-history ][ propaganda ]] criminal, but much worse than that when issued to Western worlds chief protector, the President of the United States of America.

FYRoM is not Macedonia and the peoples there are Slavic - they do not speak Centum-Greek and they never spread Hellenism. In-fact, they hate Hellenism...the culture of choice for West, the bedrock on which Western society is grounded. That advice panel assembled to advise GW Bush cannot be allowed to get away from the consequence of issuing poor-quality, politically-mischievous advice to the highest office in Western world.

Anonymous said...

The Macedonian name belongs in the Greek domain, Greek-speakers created it. Macedonian Identity belongs to Greek heritage, endowment received from long-chain of Macedonians stretching back to days of King Karanus 778-808 BC. Only hardened propagandists or severely brainwashed individuals draw strength to speak publicly their indoctrination on this subject. Some politicized-propagandized Turks see modern-Greeks like Yunans, an eastern oriental term meaning Ionians. Ionians were ancient-Hellenes like Aeolians and Dorians. Collectively, they were known as Achaeans, according to Hittite records. Hittites recorded early-Greek peoples in cuniform, their writing system. Clay tablets preserved important peaces of historical information for posterity. Propagandized-Turks differentiate between Yunans Greeks Hellenes Byzantines and Rums, Turkish term for Eastern-Roman. Because Greeks are known by many names according to specific historical period, politicized-Turks play on this to distance modern-Greek from previous generations. Greeks live next to shrewed devious eastern-oriental Turkic-peoples that learned to play politics Western-style.

The Slavs of FYRoM do exactly what Turks do. Differentiate between Dorian-Greeks and Ionians, and Aeolians. From them, >230 known, ancient-Greek groups, tribes and kingdoms collectively affiliated to form the Hellenic-tribes from antiquity. Hellene is universal self-ascription for all Greeks. I am Hellene from Macedonia for example. I am Hellene from Sparta for another example. I am Hellene from Corinthia, for third example. Final example: A Macedonian conversing with other Greek is Macedonian but to foreigner, NoN-Greek stranger, he is Hellene...from Macedonia.

So Greeces neighbours, both Turkic and Slavic propagandists work in tandem to break the links that exist between modern-Greek and previous generations of Greek. For Turks, Greeks are not Eastern-Romans, Byzantium was not the Eastern Roman Empire, Hellenes were not Greeks, etc, etc, etc. The Slavs from FYRoM do the exact same thing with Macedonians and Greeks. Oriental Turks on the one hand, playing politics Western style, better in some cases than Westerners. FYRoM Slavs on the other hand, playing politics with human rights. They see it as inalienable right to self-determine after Greek-Hellenic name when Macedonians always self-ascribed Hellene, the host native, indigenous autocthnous name all Greeks ascribe universally.

The Haemus-peninsula is primordial homeland for Hellenes - Greeks shall never relinquish elements from their cultural-historical inheritance to politicized-Turks or propagandized FYRoM South-Slavs.

Macedonians have right to keep as close as possible the Identity-characteristics of their ancestors. Keeping Macedonia Greek is important for Hellenism. Hellenic culture is culture of choice for West...the foundation on which Western Civilization rests. Erode that and everything Hellenic crumbles. South-Slavs become Macedonians and Turks become Trojans - this is our future history if Greeces neighbours had their way!

Anonymous said...

A cell divided is still a cell. An organism disected is still an organism. A people-group fragmented is still a people-group. Division disection or fragmentation does not detract from the fact that the loose parts assembled, make the whole from which they split. FYRoM is divided part of Slavic cell for example. Disected piece from Slav organism, for another example. Final example: FYRoM is fragmented portion from Slavic people-group. In this context, FYRoM cannot be the Macedonia it wants to be. Slavs cannot be Macedonians on same logic.

Macedonia is Hellenic on cell analogy, organism analogy and people-group analogy. Macedonia cannot cut loose from Hellenic cell naturally...force required to pierce membrane for example. Cutting Macedonia from Hellenic organism is another example. Final example: Macedonia is intrinsic integral componant of Hellenic people-group, important part of the whole...just one part of >230 parts. Macedonians stem from Dorian-Greeks same like Spartans. Macedonians are the northern branch whilst Spartans form the southern branch...both connect to Hellenism, to Hellenic cell, to Hellenic organism, to Hellenic people-group.

The Idea that Macedonia could be cut away from Hellas, and Macedonians cut-off from Hellenic collective of peoples, was only ever in the minds of some sick and twisted anti-Hellenic factions working to erode Hellenisms cultural contributions to Western Civilization. Anti-Hellenic factions employed in Western worlds highest political echelons lobbied for destruction of Greece, lobbied for erosion of Hellenic contributions to Western civil society, lobbied for slow incremental demise of civilization based on Greek wisdom and Roman jurisdiction.

To usher in new global monolithic-culture based on new belief systems, Western civilization was going to have to learn to live under rules and regulations. Monetary fiscal themes and synergies were to create new Economy Gods, Commercial Idols and Trade Idols the global community would look up to. Trade blocks working to rule were to replace Hellenic Ideals and core values with trade and commercial ones. This future was only in the minds of some sick and twisted anti-Hellenic mind-architects employed to lobby for replacement of Western Civilization with new one. Greece was the focus of their attention until they were ejected. On their will, and on their demands did FYRoM attain recognition as Republic of Macedonia.

Western societies future understandings of classicist history, cultural-inheritence, and legacy-endowments, would be greatly compromised if future history missed out on some vital important pieces of historical information...like Macedonians were Centum Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples for example. Ancient-Macedon was Greek Kingdom for another example. Final example: Alexander the Great was Greek King of Macedon. Messing with these long-established academic reference-points is what keeps the name dispute between FYRoM and Greece ongoing!

Whilst those sick and twisted anti-Hellenic, anti-Western mind-architects have long disappeared, lost in some other obscure 5th columnist cause...the 21st Century future they terraformed is stuck in the minds of some sick and twisted ex-Yugoslavs indoctrinated on their silliness...and on the silliness of Makedonism, the homegrown Slavist-based indoctrination they receive on daily basis that teaches Proto-Slavic origin of Dorian-Greeks. FYRoM's simple-minded, simple-hearted population get double whammy, shafted twice. Hard to recover from double whammy - FYRoM has long way to go before realization, they were simply minor pawns in effort to diminish Hellenisms cultural-historical contributions to Western Civilization

Anonymous said...

Macedonian Identity characteristics are Mono-Hellenic from since the days of King Karanus, the first King of Macedon 778-808 BC - FYRoM cannot espouse Macedonian Identity on equilibrium with Greeks on that basis. Nobody of worth, political diplomatic or academic campaigns to see FYRoM erode the Western worlds cultural-historical narrative. It is an indulgence for South-Slavs to equate themselves with the Macedonians of old...a pretentious existence to live their lives. FYRoM is not Macedonia and the peoples there are Slavic, with Slavic Identity-characteristics. Nobody of worth, political diplomatic or academic mistakes South-Slavs for Macedonians or confuses Paeonia for Macedonia.

Macedon was ancient-Greek Kingdom at northernmost extremities of Greek world. Paeonia was where FYRoM is now - FYRoM should be called Republic of Paeonia and the South-Slavs that dwell there should be called Paeonians. Macedonians have always been Greek...Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples. Nobody has right to erode the Western worlds cultural-historical narrative unilaterally. Nobody has right to script FYRoM a history and heritage based on Macedonian legacy endowments. The Macedonian name belongs in Greek domain. Macedonian Identity belongs to Greek heritage...deny this and you erode something primordial from Western worlds cultural-historical narrative - a narrative that depicts Alexander the Great as Greek King of Macedon and Macedonians like Centum Greek-speakers spreading Hellenism.

Erode ancient-Macedons Greek-Identity. Erase Macedonians Hellenic Identity-characteristics...mak e them Slavic - what then, are the consequences for overiding long-established academic reference-points. What then, are the consequences for keeping, preserving historical cohesion. The dangers in rewriting history just to establish FYRoM as NoN-Greek Macedonian Nation serves who in particular, and serves what ultimate purpose. Ultimately, it serves only to diminish the Western worlds cultural historical heritage, a heritage based on Greco-Roman cultural foundations - civilizational principles first developed in ancient-Athens further refined in ancient-Rome. Greek wisdom and Roman jurisdiction form the basis on which common Western cultural Identity developed. Macedonians played major part in that development - FYRoM played no part in that development...why should FYRoM be awarded recognition as Republic of Macedonia!

Western culture is under threat. The threat comes more from within, more than from outside. Fifth columnist mind-architects, working to terraform us better future work more to erode Hellenic elements from Western worlds cultural historical inheritance - Why ? Who benefits from that mode of thinking! Working to make FYRoM Macedonia and to make ex-Yugoslavs Macedonians at the expense and exclusion of Greek concerns ultimately serves who ? serves what purpose ?

Western culture is irreplaceable - worth keeping, worth preserving, worth developing...until it evolves into global culture of choice, universal culture. Why destroy it when there is nothing else to replace it with.

Anonymous said...

Macedonia:How FYRoM Came Close To Destroying The West.

In plain terms and simple language: Western mind-architects viewed Greece like strategic-partner important-ally during WWII and Civil War years. Then fall of Communism came and things changed. Western mind-architects view of Greece changed.

In terraforming new political landscape for West, Greece was relegated to unimportant status in planning stages...Turkey and FYRoM were elevated in importance, sketched into blue-prints that planned for Neo-Ottoman Control of Balkan area, covering FYRoM, Albania, Kosovo, Bosnia-Hertzegovina - Where Turanid influence was greatest. Turkeys one time strategic-partnership to Israel, allied both to the subscription of blue-prints mind-architects sketched-up to terraform West bright future.

Planning economic and geo-strategic future for Haemus [Balkan] peninsula at the expense and exclusion of Greek Ideas and Greek concerns...placed those mind-architects terraforming them in direct confrontation with Greece. Excluding Greece from blue-prints sketching future for Haemus Greek-peninsula saw FYRoM recognized as Republic of Macedonia, saw Turkey utilizing Western media assets promoting Turanic-culture, like alternative-culture to Western-culture, for Balkan statelets coming under Neo-Ottoman control. FYRoM in Western media outlets was promoted like ancient-Macedonia, land of Alexander the Great, where Macedonians differed from Greeks, where Macedonians spoke Slavic and hailed from Proto-Slavs. Turkey promoted like Neo-Ottoman controller with ancestry, history and heritage stemming of ancient-Trojans.

In plain terms and simple language: The West lost it's way. Led by politicians and diplomats dissinterested in Culture, History and Principles of Civilization that developed them...more interested in ruling over cultureless fake entities emboldened by recognition, empowered to indulge in pseudo-historical revisionism.

In plain terms and simple language: Enemies of West...Western Civilization in particular, lurk within, in diplomatic offices where 5th columnist mind-architects are employed to terraform us bright future. For them, cultural-historical narratives mean little and count for nothing. For them, future history excludes Hellenic and Greco-Roman contributions to world history. For them, future civilization devolops on their Ideas, by their will, as they demand.

Anonymous said...

The easiest job in the world is proving how Hellenic Macedonians have been throughout the ages. From since the days of King Karanus 778-808 BC, with countless entries in the Western worlds cultural-historical narrative recording them as Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples, one would be hard pushed to disprove historical reference-points in order prove otherwise. Only hardened propagandists and severely brainwashed individuals attempt to erase Macedonians Hellenic-Identity in order to superimpose on them Slavic-Identity. Only hardened propagandists and severely brainwashed individuals equate Macedonia to FYRoM and Macedonians to ex-Yugoslavs.

The easiest job in the world, on par with the one above, is proving how Slavic FYRoM is. Define Slavic and FYRoM ticks all the boxes. Slavdom includes FYRoM into their collective. There is no higher endorsement than that.

The hardest job in the world is proving how Slavic Macedonians have been throughout the ages. Slavs never knew this name before the 6th Century AD. The Slavic tribes entered Byzantium...the Eastern-Roman Empire during the last decades of the 6th Century AD, not as Macedonians but as Draguvites, Berzites and Sagudates - FYRoM's immediate closest Slavic ancestors.

The hardest job in the world, on par with the one above, is proving how Macedonian FYRoM is. Define Macedonia and Hellenism comes to mind. Define Macedonians and Centum Greek-speakers come to mind, spreading Hellenism, led by Alexander the Great the Greek King of Macedon.

The name dispute between FYRoM and Greece is a silly dispute - silly in that some anti-Hellenic factions in the West entertained minor Slavic country's indulgences. The damage it has done to Western societies understanding of common cultural heritage is their doing. The damage it has done Western worlds cultural-historical narrative is also their doing. The damage it has done to Western Civilizations cultural-historical foundation is their doing, the same.

FYRoM came close to undermining Western worlds cultural cohesion. Almost ruined Western societies understanding of common cultural bonds, bonds that tie the West to civilizational principles first developed in ancient Athens and then refined further in Rome. FYRoM nearly destroyed Western worlds historical cohesion...aided and abetted by some anti-Western, anti-Hellenic mind-architects with mind to give West new narrative based on new civilizational principles developed on Banking, Trade and Commerce.

Preserving historical-cohesion aids in maintaining social-cohesion. Erode Western societies understandings of common cultural heritage and you dilute the glue that binds West together culturally. Was this the intention ? Recognizing FYRoM as Republic of Macedonia aids in the erosion of Western worlds cultural-historical narrative. Was this the intention ?

Anonymous said...

FYRoM: A minor Slavic country recently established 1991 contributed nothing towards the cultural developments of Western Civilization, not one thing...this is something to remember when South-Slavs there present themselves like ethnic-Macedonians. FYRoM is not Macedonia and the peoples there are Slavic - something more to remember in contention to the name dispute between FYRoM and Greece over usage of Macedonian name for country-name.

FYRoM is Paeonian territory in ancient geography...Dardanian north from Skopje. Macedonia is further south inside ancient boundaries of Hellas. There are 4 Academic disciplines, (i) Geography, (ii) History, (iii) Demography and (iv) Philology that can distinguish FYRoM from Macedonia, yet some anti-Hellenic factions in the West advised Western worlds chief-guardian and chief-protector to recognize FYRoM as Republic of Macedonia - something to remember...for the record!

In November 2004, GW Bush in his first policy initiative since re-election, acted on poor-quality advice to recognize FYRoM as The Republic of Macedonia. It turns out, that advice was politically-charged, anti-Hellenic in nature and anti-Western by extension. If the USA is the Western worlds chief-guardian, and if the President of the United States of America is protector in chief of the same...then how could some anti-Hellenic mind-architects breech security to issue Western worlds chief-guardian anti-Western advice.

Macedon, the ancient-Greek Kingdom, contributed greatly to Western worlds cultural-historical narrative. In that narrative, Centum Greek-speaking Macedonians along with other Greeks spread Hellenism to the farthestmost reaches of the then know ancient-world...led by Alexander the Great, the Greek King of Macedon. The recognition of FYRoM as Republic of Macedonia threatened to erode Western Societies common understandings of their own common cultural-heritage. FYRoM contributed nothing towards the development of Western culture yet claims benefits from legacy endowment received from ancient-Macedon.

FYRoM's recognition as Republic of Macedonia empowers a minor Slavic-country recently established to utilize recognition-rights to stake claim to all things Macedonia(n) - Name, Identity, History, Heritage, Legacy...something that erodes Hellenic contributions to Western-worlds cultural-foundation - something to remember...for the record.

FYRoM got to where it is on the back of some Greek-hating, anti-Hellenic 5th Columnists...working inside Western-worlds highest echelons issuing anti-Hellenic, anti-Western advice to Western worlds chief-guardian and protector in chief - The President of the United States of America. GW Bushed was duped into recognizing FYRoM as Republic of Macedonia on the issuance of poor-quality, academically-flawed, politically-charged, substandard advice.Playing politics with Western worlds cultural-historical narrative has left us a legacy manifested in name-dispute that is almost a generation old. FYRoM believes it has right to stake claim to cultural-inheritance they never contributed towards, nor their Slavic ancestors. FYRoM is minor Slavic-country claiming legacy endowment from ancient-Macedon...an ancient-Greek Kingdom - according to the Western worlds cultural-historical narrative.

Anonymous said...

FYRoM is not Greek enough to use Macedonian-Name for country-name...sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity. Macedonia is Hellenic - FYRoM is Slavic - Do the Math! FYRoM stakes claim to cultural-inheritance Slavs contributed nothing towards. FYRoM claims legacy-endowment from Greek achievements! Historians Geographers Philologists and Demographers can distinguish FYRoM from Macedonia. Academia can see right through FYRoM - all the way back to Paeonia and Dardania.

South-Slavs of FYRoM cannot benefit from cultural-inheritance they contributed nothing towards. South-Slavs contributed nothing towards the development of Western culture, Western Civilization, Western Civil Society. Recognition empowers FYRoM South-Slavs to stake claim to legacy-endowments their ancestors had nothing to do with, contributed anbsolutely nothing towards. Slavic tribes were absent from Macedonia, late arrivals. History records Slavic settlement of the Haemus [ Greek ] peninsula near millennium after the death of Alexander the Great, at top-end of 6th Century AD.

FYRoM's Slavic ancestors met Byzantine-Greeks not ancient-Macedonians. And if that interaction between incoming Slavs and medieval-Greeks produced offspring, the progeny of that union would be entitled to receive inheritance from Imperial-Byzantium...not ancient-Macedon. Legacy-endowment received from Byzantium, the Empire of Constantinople is the closest FYRoM gets to benefitting from Greco-Slavic cross-fertilization and cultural-intgeractions. Medieval Slavs cannot benefit from Pre-Slavic legacy-endowments, on the basis, they contributed nothing towards them, towards their development.

And if there are Slavic-speakers in FYRoM or elsewhere, that can trace their lineage back to Slavicization of their medieval Greek-speaking Byzantine ancestors...this particular lineage would be entitled to claim full autochthonous rights, same as Greeks - to keep as close as possible the Identity-characteristics of their ancestors. The UN recognizes the rights of native, indigenous, autochthonous populations to retain as much as possible the Identity-characteristics of their ancestors. For FYRoM Slavs it means claiming cultural-inheritance from Byzantium, and earlier legacy-endowments from Paeonia. For Greek born Slavs, it means claiming cultural-inheritance from Byzantium, and earlier legacy-endowments from Macedonia. Greeks that speak Slavic but retain Greek-conciousness benefit from legacy-endowments passed on from Greek ancestors.

Slavicization is not the basis from which to contend with Greeks, Macedonian legacy-endowments. Greeks sit at top-end of heirarchy table, on basis, they retain Hellenic Identity-characteristics of their ancestors. FYRoM Slavs cannot compete with this, when explaining their so called Macedonian-Identity in contention to the Greeks from Macedonia. Nobody of worth places the rights of FYRoM above the rights of Macedonians wanting to keep as close as possible, the Identity-characteristics of their ancestors. Nobody understands that more than the UN, EU, USA, NATO and the International Academic community.

Anonymous said...

The general consensus amongst leading world diplomats, politicians and academics, working in the service of the UN, EU, USA, NATO and the International Academic Community, is for FYRoM to compromise in the long running name dispute with Greece, over the use of the Macedonian name. The name dispute has gone way past it's sell by date and should be settled definitively. Nobody of worth, political diplomatic or academic places the rights of FYRoM above the rights of Macedonians wanting to retain as close as possible, the Identity-characteristics of their ancestors. Greeks have right to do that, on the basis of their native indigenous status. Macedonians are autochthonous Haemus Hellenic people-group. The UN recognizes the rights of indigenous populations to keep as close as possible, the Identity-characteristics of their ancestors...FYRoM keeps Macedonians from doing that. FYRoM's recognition as 'Republic of Macedonia' infringes on the rights of Macedonians to keep their name in the Greek domain and to retain Macedonian Identity-characteristics anchored to Greek heritage.

FYRoM contributed nothing towards the development of Western Culture, Western Civilization or Western Civil Society, therefore, FYRoM should not benefit from Macedonian legacy-endowments. FYRoM should not benefit from Greek contributions one iota. Recognition empowered the South-Slavs of FYRoM to stake claim to cultural-inheritance their Slavic ancestors had nothing to do with, and contributed nothing towards. This is the absurdity of it...the absurdity of recognition. The West allowed a minor Slavic-country recently established, to dupe them. So who is responsible for that ?

FYRoM is not Macedonia and the peoples there are Slavic, an exogenous population-group that settled Imperial-Byzantium, the Greek world, at the top-end of 6th Century AD, almost a millennium after the death of Alexander the Great. How can a people-group exogenous to the Haemus [ Greek ] peninsula, benefit from the deeds of Macedonians, an indigenous Haemus Hellenic people-group - How does that work ?

The decision to recognize FYRoM as 'Republic of Macedonia' was wrong at many levels...those who lobbied for recognition should own-up and take responsibility. The damage it has caused the West is incalculable. To have FYRoM recognized as Macedonia is an act against the West, against Western-Culture, against Western-Civilization and against Western Civil Societies understandings of common heritage legacy-endowment. Macedonians contributed towards the early development of all of these things - FYRoM did not...FYRoM South-Slavs contributed nothing towards these things. Why should they benefit from Greek achievements ?

Anonymous said...

Macedonians have right to keep as Greek as possible, the Identity-characteristics of their Haemus Hellenic ancestors. The UN recognizes the rights of autochthonous population-groups to keep as close as possible, the Identity-characteristic of their ancestors. FYRoM infringes on the rights of Macedonians wanting to keep their Identity Greek. Recognition of FYRoM as 'Republic of Macedonia' empowers Slavs there to claim things which never belonged to them in the first place. FYRoM cannot benefit from cultural achievements their Slavic ancestors had nothing to do with...contributed nothing towards. FYRoM cannot benefit from Greek achievements and get away with it!

Greek history and heritage is to be cherished and preserved, not to be messed with. It is not just the Greeks that benefit from Hellenic culture...the Western world as a whole benefits from it. The West looks back to ancient Greece and Rome for cultural nourishment and sustenance. Western Civil Society developed on Greek and Roman cultural foundations. Western Civilization owes the Greeks and Latins for contributing profoundly towards it's creation...Celto-Germanic refinements enriched a Greco-Roman culture and way of life first started in the Hellenic world - FYRoM contributed nothing towards Western Civilization...Why should FYRoM benefit from Greek achievements.

Those who campaigned to have FYRoM established as 'Republic of Macedonia' did it from anti-Hellenic, anti-Western prespectives...eroding the cultural-foundations on which Western Civilization is based should be made criminal offence. If the West has a champion, and if that champion is to be the United States of America, and if the president of the united states is to be the chief protector of Western Civilizational principles - then, those who advised the president to recognize FYRoM, a minor Slavic-country to 'Republic of Macedonia' committed crimes against the West. Macedonians contributed greatly towards development of Western Civilizational principles, left the West big legacy-endowment, which the presidents advisors tried to erode. Erode the Western worlds cultural-foundation and Western Civilization crumbles. Was this the intention I wonder.

Anonymous said...

The real battle raging right now is clash of civilizations. We have seen recently, in recent living memory, the slow incremental erosion of Western Culture, Western Civilizational Principles, and Western Civil Societies common understandings of shared common heritage...all of these things eroded intentionally, all in the name multiculturalsim. To accomodate large numbers of outsiders into the West, it was deemed necessary to diminish civilizational principles the host culture was grounded on.

The mindset, to erode (i) Western Culture, (ii) Western Civilizational Principles, (iii) Western Civil Societies common understandings of shared common heritage developed from inside the West itself, in the highest echelons of diplomatic office. Anti-Western fifth-columnist mind-architects, working in positions of influence, advised the Western worlds self-styled Guardian and chief Protector to recognize FYRoM like 'Republic of Macedonia' - a provocative anti-Hellenic, anti-Western act.

Macedonians contributed greatly to the development of Western Culture, Western Civilization and Western Civil Societies common understandings of shared common heritage. FYRoM contributed nothing towards these things. Why should South-Slavs benefit from Greek achievements! Blurring the distinction between Macedonians and ex-Yugoslavs intentionally, erodes Western Civil Societies common understandings of shared common heritage...this is the first step towards crumbling the foundations Western Civilization was grounded on - a provocative anti-Western act!

GW Bush was the least educated President of all the Presidents of the United States of America...he needed advice on most matters. The advisors that surrounded him took advantage of his handicap, they issued him poor-quality advice, substandard advice, advice that was academically-flawed...advice that was anti-Hellenic at heart and anti-Western by nature. FYRoM is Paeonia not Macedonia. The peoples there are Slavic not Hellenic. Confusing Paeonia for Macedonia and mistaking ex-Yugoslavs for Macedonians intentionally, are anti-Hellenic acts, anti-Western by extension. The President can excuse and absolve himself but his advisors cannot - they committed crimes against the West that are only now, seen for what they are.

Clash of Civilizations - The West lost it's way, and in that void, allowed the erosion of Western Culture, Western Civilizational Principles, and Western Civil Societies common understandings of shared common heritage to such a degree that anti-Hellenic, anti-Western 5th Columnists fight to have FYRoM re-labelled from Paeonia to Macedonia, in order to usurp the Macedonian name for sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity. Afrocentrists fight to have Western Culture re-labelled African. Turkocentrists fight to have Trojan history re-labelled Turan history. But worst from all of these anti-Hellenic causes, is the fight to have the Wests history start from Karalos Magnos - Charlamagne 800 AD, completely erasing Greek and Latin contributions towards Western Civilizations cultural development.

The West did lose it's way - eroded, damaged but not beyond repair! The Western worlds self-styled Guardian in Chief and Chief Protector is focused like a lazer beam on preservation of Western worlds cultural-historical narrative. Common heritage with clear understanding from whence it began. Western Culture is worth preserving...without it, what do we have, but competing causes trying to erode it!

Anonymous said...

Blurring the distinction between (i) Macedonia and Paeonia,(ii) Macedonians from Yugoslavs,(iii) Haemus-Hellene from South-Slav, contributes to the erosion of Western Civil Societies common understandings in shared common heritage…the fabric from which the West wove it’s cloth, the glue that binds Western democracies to adhere to common Civilizational Principles.

Erode the Western worlds cultural-historical narrative. Erode the Wests cultural-historical heritage. Erode Western Civil Societies common understandings of shared common heritage, now sit back and watch the Western worlds cultural-foundation crumble.

FYRoM is not Macedonia and the peoples there are Slavic. The West Owes FYRoM Nothing – The West Owes Macedonians a great deal. Macedonians deserve respect…for their contributions to development of Western Civilization.

Anonymous said...

How White was Ancient-Greece

There was no Greece in ancient times. The Haemus-peninsula, the Aegean Islands, Southern-Italy, Anatolia, and Cyprus, were home to >230 ancient-Greek groups, tribes and Kingdoms that universally self-ascribed Hellene for Identity.

From the river Iber in the West to the river Evros in the East – that space in between is Greek concept…Evropi.

In Ancient-times, Centum Greek-speaking Hellenes could be found in West side of Europe Iberia, nowadays Spain and Portugal. The same could be found as far East as Colchis, nowadays Georgia and Armenia.

The colour-tone of ancient-Greeks matched the climatic conditions of the areas they inhabited. The Natural colour-tone of Ancient-Hellenes never differed greatly from the mean-Mediterrenean one.

Ancient-Greeks compared their skin colour-tones to the dark burnt faces of Ancient-Ethiopians…then, to the pale white faces of Thracians, and concluded: The Gods adorned Hellenes with best median skin tone that best suited the human form.

Greeks and Latins are Mediterrenean peoples with skin colour-tones to match. It is from these ancient-peoples Western Civilization developed.

Afrocentrists – Nordicists – Turanids – These peoples look back at themselves and awe at the achievements of the Greco-Roman.



Anonymous said...

So the peoples of FYRoM learn to see themselves like Macedonians. They learn to see their land like Macedonia and their language like Macedonian-language. In reality though, FYRoM is Paeonia geographically, Dardania north from Skopje. The peoples there are Yugoslavians, same like Slovenians, Serbians, Croatians and Bulgarians. The language spoken there is Serbo-Bulgarian, a Satem-Slavic concoction renamed Macedonian-language August 1944, on the will of Marshall Tito, Croatian dictator of Wartime Yugoslavia.

It is important to say here that not all of the peoples of FYRoM see themselves that way. A large percentage of them see themselves differently - so there is a problem of perception, inwardly and outwardly.

Inwardly: Minorities in FYRoM see the majority there like South-Slavs from Serbian and Bulgarian stock, and call them the same.

Outwardly: Those who see FYRoM like Macedonia, Yugoslavians like Macedonians, their Satem-Slavic language like Macedonian-language...display an ignorance deficient of knowledge in the fields of geography, demography, history and linguistics.

FYRoM is not Macedonia and the peoples there are Slavic. Yugoslavians and Bulgarians form Slavdoms southern-branch...confusing South-Slavs for Macedonians displays disgraceful ignorance of classicist Graeco-Roman history, a mischievous deviancy from mainstream preset academic reference-point.

If the peoples of FYRoM in their majority wish to see themselves like Macedonians, their country like Macedonia and their language like Macedonian-language - that, is for them to decide, it is their perogative to see themselves that way...self-perception is private and individual. The problems begin when that image, that self-perception is screened on world-stage setting.

When a peoples are that indoctrinated to see themselves in way that clashes and conflicts with the way the outside world see them, like the UN, EU, USA, NATO and the International Academic Community - It becomes duty for these worldy-wise bodies and institutions to set the record straight...Macedonia is northern-Greece, Macedonians are Centum Greek-speakers and Macedonian-language is Centum-Hellenic language. The way Greeks see themselves is the way others see them, no clashes no conflicts. Contemporary Greeks look back at themselves standing at forefront of long chain of Centum Greek-speakers.

Todays Greeks see themselves like cultural-linguistic continuators of a Hellenic inheritance that has been passed-on to them from previous generations of Greeks...stretching all the way back to and from, Mycaenean Proto-Greeks. The Greek language and Hellenism define an ancient and archaic people-group that boasts autochthony to Haemus peninsula. Greek cultural-linguistic space can Hellenize peoples in it's sphere of influence. From Crete in the south to Macedonia in the north, and from Cyprus in the east to Sicily in the west...that space in between is Greek cultural-linguistic sphere - from since millenia. Greeks look back at themselves and awe at their inheritance.

Greeks promise to defend, protect and pass-on their inheritance to next generation of Greeks - Come Hell or High Water

Anonymous said...

Original greeks are from indo aryan hittites , same as the kurds , the indians (india) nothing to do with color brown or fair as hittites were mixed . And berbers are from indo aryan hittite people , the lydians are the Hittites and they were in north africa intermingling with people of phut and kush . Even the assyrians were mixed akkadian mixed with sumerians who are the Canaanite straight haired dravidians , the amorites (imliq) mixed with a Canaanite people same as pure aboriginal people of North America . Assyrians mixed with thamud who are from prophet hud or at least the royalty among them , arameans are the nabateans/chaldeans came out aftet actual tribe of thamud perished prophet saalih and family remained . Arameans mixed into assyrian s , assyria s were in north africa , the dna of elamites is E1b1b same as north africa . Elamites were a mix of dravidian canaanite mixed with a canaanite people same as aboriginal people of North America mixed with another hamitic type or types possibly phut and cush features would not look like an african .assyrians are succeesors of thamud

Anonymous said...

On a spiritual side, I have seen Prophet Muhammad PBH 10 times, and I say it with no boasting. I dreamed of the Prophet PBH and I am standing besides him, and I was told I am not a sayyid.

I ask the Prophet PBH about the Indian people, he PBH had a big smile on his face and this is why I started to find out about the Indian people, particularly the dark ones.

Twice I dreamed the Dravidians are the Sumerians; and they are from Canaan, and the Blacks and Ethiopians are from Cush, ibn Ham.

After a yr I came across something in Prophets and Patriarchs which said Nimrod was a disbeliever and son of Cush, son of Canaan, son of Ham. There are two Cush's and people have gotten them mixed up. The sumerians migrated to India, but also they went into southern Arabia. That's how a group of them made it to the horn of Africa. The dark afro-asiatic Elamites are from Phut ibn Ham, yes, the Cushites from Cush ibn Ham are indeed blessed as well

I dreamed an explanation of the Dravidians. I was told in the dream of what it is to be Hamitic in type; with straight hair and they were also Egyptians. Then after some time I dreamed the Dravidians came from the fertile crescent in Syria, close to the sea.

After this I dreamed they came from Egypt, close to the sea, and I see arrows showing their travel. One arrow goes up into the fertile crescent in Syria, and the other goes east through south Iraq and southern Iran until the arrow reached northwest India!

Also I dreamed of a migration in the shape of a U on the river Nile, though nowhere did I see anything to do with the horn of africa.

On 13/11/11 I dreamed the Dravidians are Phoenicians. A branch of Dravidians did settle in the fertile crescent in Syria, close to the sea.

Anonymous said...

Correction I have seen the Prophet 12 time PBH

Anonymous said...

Also I will make a correction about elamites just recently I saw something about them I will put the date

Anonymous said...

Everything else I mentioned was correct about dravidians

Anonymous said...

Also I have seen the Prophet 12 times now . On march 27th 2014 , I dreamt the Elamites were a mix of Canaanite Dravidian mixed with anothet Canaanite people same as pure aboriginal people of North America mixed with another hamitic type or types maybe phut a d cush , I saw light curly hair , not an afro

Anonymous said...

on the 28/12/11 i dreamt the phoenecians in north africa and i saw italy and there is interaction between them both


Nimrudh (Nimrod) was the son of Kush (Cush) Ibn Kan'an Ibn Ham lbn Nuh. The same who ruled Babil in the days of lbràhim, the friend of the Compassionate.

www.soebratie.nl/religie/hadith/IbnSad...

Anonymous said...

a day or two ago to be on safe side from last week to 25/02/12

i dreamt that the lydians are the Hittites
===================================================
on 30/08/12
I have dreamt the greeks and Kurds are same and that the Kurds are from the Edomites
==========
on 17/03/12 I dreamt the asians also have a little bit of Hittite background
==========
on 02/09/12
I dreamt of north africa and the berbers come from the Hittites who come from the Adites MashaaAllaah
==========

==========
no date 2 times i dreamt the Lydians were in North africa and 1 time they are the Hittites!
Ironically, the language of the Lydians, spoken in the West of Asia Minor until the 1st century BC, was apparently a linguistic descendant of Hittite, and not Luwian. This and the fact that one of Lydia's kings known to the Greeks bore the Hittite royal name Myrsilis (Mursilis) may indicate that this state was the purest cultural and ethnic continuation of the former Hittites. The last trace of this language persisted until the 5th century AD, according to some Church Fathers, when it was known as the tiny dialect of Isaurian, spoken in only one or two villages.http://www.crystalinks.com/hittites.html info found on 28/11/2013
===================================================
on 09/30/12 i dreamt the kurds are from hittite royalty & Indians(India)

===================================================
on 10/10/2012

I dreamt of north africa Morocco and I saw the face of my Moroccan friend and that the berbers are from the Imliq (are from the Ad)
=====================================================================================

Imliq is the father of the Amalekites from whom came the berbers,who are children of Thamila bin Maarib bin Faaraan bin 'Amr bin 'Imliq bin Lud bin Sam(Shem) bin Nuh (Noah)PBH
.prophets and patriarchs
===================================================


07/07/12i dreamt the Arameans absorbed the amorites
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


On 23/09/2013 I dreamt of the Prophet PBH saying the Kurds are from the Chaldeans and he saying they are my people

Anonymous said...

Hellenes and the Centum-Greek language exist in Haemus-peninsula for Millennia. Modern-Greeks boast continuity to both. Todays Greeks are the closest modern humans to the ancient-Greeks. Nobody on this Planet is closer. Greeks look back at themselves standing at the forefront of long chain of Greek-speakers…streatching all the way back to Mycaenean Proto-Greeks. Todays Greeks get their Heritage from Greco-Roman Byzantines. The Byzantine Eastern-Romans got theirs from the ancient-Hellenes. Ancient-Hellenes got their heritage from Mycaenean Proto-Greeks. Modern-Greeks connect in fragmented way to first-Greeks. Continuity always follows path of least resistance. No other modern-peoples connect to ancient-Greeks the way modern-Greeks do.

FYRoM connects to Paeonia geographically. South-Slavs there connect to Slavic tribes, Draguvites, Sagudates, Birzetes etc, settlers who made the Haemus peninsula their home top-end of 6th Century AD. FYRoM is Slavic – The closest Slavic peoples next to Greeks. After 1400 years living next to each other, intermingling, we are more closer than we think or care to mention. Cross-fertilization [[ by force ][ by free will ]] between Northern-Greeks and Southern-Slavs is a given. Hellenized-Slavs, Slavicized-Greeks exist, unsubstantiated though, in numbers, census data, or demographic records. Slavic-speakers affiliate to the Exarchate of Bulgaria. Greek-speakers affiliate to Patriarchate of Constantinople. The seperation process was initiated by Slavs. A Slavic Idea based on the resurrection of Bulgaria Nation State with revival of Bulgarian Exarchate in mind, 1860 onwards!

FYRoM South-Slavs, the closest Slavs to Greeks, boasting ethnic-feelings towards Macedonia and Macedonians, harbouring collective-memories rooted in ancient-Hellenic themes and synergies, are entirely understandable, given the context and back-drop from which they derive. But still, even with that kind of self-conscious Identity, they are not Greek enough to be the Macedonians they want to be. They cannot be Macedonian in Greek sense of that word.

FYRoM South-Slavs…the closest Slavs to Greeks, blur the distinction between Yugoslavians and Macedonians, in hostile way, anti-Hellenic fashion. FYRoM is not Hellenic-friendly. From since they stepped onto the world-stage, they alienated whole Nation of Hellenes plus Greek diaspora, a proud people-group with history and heritage numbering approximately 20 Millions. Greek history is not to be messed with the way FYRoM messes with it. The Macedonian name sprang from Centum Greek-speakers. Macedonian-Identity forged and cast in Hellenic mould. The Name, Identity, History, Heritage, Legacy – All Greek.

With heritage like this, the Hellenic Republic is morally and legally obliged to protect it. Greeks see themselves like continuators of a language, culture and way of life started by first Greeks. Dare to Mess with that!

Anonymous said...

When ones subconcious-Identity differs from the paternal-Identity of their ancestors - what medical term best describes such a condition...disociative-Identi ty disorder, perhaps!

If I think of myself like Macedonian, descendant from Macedonians of old...but others around me, see me like South-Slav, descended from Slavic-tribes that settled Greek [Haemus] peninsula at top-end of 6th Century AD, what best describes me - the way I see myself, or the way others see me ?

If I see myself like Macedonian, similar to Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity, but others around me see me like South-Slav, similar to Slovenians, Serbians, Croatians, Montenegrins and Bulgarians - How should third parties react to such a predicament ?

If I see myself like Macedonian, living in Macedonia, speaking Macedonian...but others around me, see me like Bulgarian, living in Paeonia, speaking west-dialect of Bulgarian - In who's reality should I adjust dimension!

When those around me, and those around them, outwardly see me like South-Slav...when I myself, see my inner subconscious-self like Macedonian - in who's reality should I adjust!

When my inner subconscious-self image differs from the outward image others see me by...what medical-term best describes such a iatrogenic condition - Persoanlity disorder, perhaps!

Whoever sees Yugoslavians like Macedonians, Paeonia like Macedonia, is deficient in geographic knowledge, demographic knowledge and historical knowledge...and suffers from same condition as FYRoM - Identity Crisis!

Macedonians are seen for what they are - Centum Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples...from since the days of King Karanus 778-808 BC.

Anonymous said...

The more inside themselves they retreat, the more they find to confuse them. Delving into their recent past, the peoples of FYRoM group with South-Slavs...Bulgarians to be the nearest. Not impressed with that, they brush away any notion of relatedness to them to delve further back to a time before the Bulgars, before the Slavs even - to pre-Bulgar times and pre-Slavic times.

The more inside themselves they delve, the more they find confusing. Like, why do they speak Bulgarian but call their own language Macedonian-language...like why do they group with South-Slavs but call themselves Macedonians. Macedonians are Haemus native whilst Bulgars and South-Slavs are not. This is confusing, even to the scholars of genes, languages and people-dynamics.

The more inside themselves they retreat, the more they find to confuse themselves. You see, before the Bulgars came to the Haemus, there was only Byzantium...and before the Slavs, the same. Pre-Bulgar times were times when Greek-speakers called themselves Romioi, Eastern-Romans. Pre-Slavic times, the same. The language FYRoM used before the Bulgars came, and before the Slavs came, was Centum-Greek.

The more they investigate themselves...like delve more into the makings of their Name, their Identity, their Nationality, their Language, their Ethnicity, their History, their Heritage - The mist of confusion clears to reveal the real reason for their being - to take Macedonia for Slavdom. When they delve hard, back enough, they find that the Idea to create Macedonians from South-Slavs was born during imperialistic Tzarist times, then the Idea migrated to the Pan-Slavic era, migrated again to the Communist era, when a Croat Slav created for the first ever, Macedonia in the Slavic world. Then Serbs Serbianized the Bulgarian-language and called it Macedonian-language. The Slovenes, Montenegrins, Bulgarians and the rest, accepted the creation of a Macedonian people-group within Slavdom. For the duration of the Cold War era, the Idea lay dormant until Communism dies. The Idea resurfaces again with a vengeance when Yugoslavia expires spawning 6 new Republics from one Yugoslavic Federation.

The more FYRoM delves into the makings of it's existence, the more they find out, they are not Macedonians at all...at least, not in the Greek sense of that word! FYRoM South-Slavs cannot be Macedonians, the same Macedonians that exist in the Greek [Haemus] peninsula from since the days of King Karanus, first King of Macedon 778-808 BC. A distinction is required to differentiate between Slavic-Macedonians and Hellenic-Macedonians - This is what Greece asks for, some clarification to waylay the opportunism and to quell the confusion.

Anonymous said...

Macedonia:Peopled By Haemus-Hellenic Natives

Haemus natives are recognizable by the genes they carry. E1b1b and J2 are neolithic markers who’s subclades mutated unique features in the Haemus [Greek] peninsula. It must be stressed though…genetic markers denote origins only, not ethnicity! Ethnicity is difficult subject to discuss, something cultural, something that is learned under strict authoritarian control or not.

If the peoples of the Haemus [Greek] peninsula derive from same gene pool…what is it that makes them Greek. To know that requires extensive backround knowledge on them.

Greeks, since the beginning, have been a seafaring international-peoples. Consequently, Greeks met and intermingled with a great variety of foreign peoples.

Greeks are said to be ‘cousins’ to a great variety of other peoples.

The Greek character having formed over millennia, can be summarized as being multi-layered and multifaceted. Most people see Greek-peoples like Mediterraneans, but there is more.

Mediterranean: Greeks could be clustered together with Italians, Maltese, Spaniards, Portuguese, and to a lesser extent, the French…within the framework of a Greater Greaco-Roman Mediterranean civilization.

Western European: Since, in the West, Greece is considered to be the cradle of Western civilization.

Eastern European: Since Greece is situated there and Greeks Baptized, Christianized and Civilized the Slavic-Tribes to Greek Orthodox Christendom, the religion of Byzantium, the Eastern-Roman Empire.

Middle-Eastern: Since Greek expansion into Asia-Minor and beyond, ensured prolonged ties with Eastern Cultures and Oriental ones.

Balkanian: Greeks are not comfortable with this Turkic term.
Greeks prefer Haemus-Native instead. Anyway, a Balkanian Identity similar to that of Albanians, Serbians, Croatians, Montinegrins, Slovenians, Bulgarians, FYRoMians, Romanians, does exist. There are common elements, contributions from the Eastern Roman Empire, and from the Ottoman Empire. Shared common cultural themes, manerisms, morphology, and folkloric synergies bear testament to long-time exposure between like-minded people-groups.

Greeks have always been an International Peoples, since time immemorial. The Greek Character is multi-layered and multifaceted, drawing in embedded experiences from five different geographical locations.

Greeks were never restricted to one particular country, there were no countries with fixed border’s in ancient times. Greece in ancient times could be visualized spanning from Spain in the West to Georgia in the East. There was never a country called Greece in ancient times...instead, there were many Greeks inhabiting many regions in Evropi and beyond.

Anonymous said...

There are no better examples than the FYRoM example, that best illustrate the problems faced by a peoples cultured on way of life their collective-memories do the utmost to erase. FYRoM is cultured on Slavdom but harbours collective-memories rooted in Hellenism.

People dynamics dictate: Peoples absorbed by another peoples, change speech and culture but retain collective-memory. In FYRoM live E1b1b J2 Haemus natives, who may or may not, have been Greek-speakers affiliating to Hellenism, the host culture of the Haemus peninsula, Pre-Slavic times.

In the Haemus [Greek] peninsula we are all Greek to some degree, some more than others. In the Haemus exists Albanophones, Slavophones, Vlachophones etc. They can be Haemus-peoples on genetic dynamic speaking language(s) different to Centum-Greek…that does not exclude them from claiming native indigenous status. E1b1b J2 haplogroups mutated subclades unique to the Haemus-peninsula, those found carrying them boast native origin.

If we, Haemus-peoples, stem from same common Haemus gene-pool, then Greeks have it about right when they distinguish peoples there solely on the phonetic dynamic. Same genous, different speech…this is the Greek way of describing Haemus-peoples with native origin.

NoN-Greek speakers espousing ethnic-feelings and national-pride for Greece and Hellenism should have the right to express themselves. Speaking a language that is different from Centum-Greek does not exclude Haemus-peoples from holding on to collective-memories that are deep-rooted in the myths and legends of the Hellenic world.

Greeks have it about right then, when they consider some Albanophones, Slavophones and Vlachopones to be brothers and sisters to Greeks. Same genous, different speech…the difference is phonetic only, not genetic – same Haemus-peoples, they just happen to speak different language.

In the Haemus [Greek] peninsula, the host culture dominated for millennia…those in closest proximity to Greeks, Hellenized willingly and voluntarily. Greeces modern neighbours could Re-Hellenize – retun back to base, back to the fold.

In the Haemus, we are all Greek to some degree…It’s just that some of us are more Greek than others. The Haemus though, is not as Greek as it used to be, culturally and linguistically. The peninsula now, is home to peoples and languages the Greeks had to learn to live with – sometimes the hard way. Albanians, Bulgarians, FYRoMians, Serbians, Croatians, Montenegrins, Slovenians, Rumanians, Hungarians and Turks – a milieu of peoples, languages and cultures that wear the ethnogenic substratum of the Haemus quite smartly.

Anonymous said...

FYRoM governed by Makedonists, politically motivated on anti-Hellenic Ideology, shall always pose a problem for Greece, for the West in general, and for the Haemus peninsula in particular.

The problem for Greece is the name. Republic of Macedonia is not suitable name for minor Slavic country recently established, in 1991. The name has Hellenic baggage strewn across the millennia dating back to the first King of Macedon, King Karanus 778-808 BC. To contest that prefixed academic reference-point would be fatal for the challenger. Integrity and credibility come to mind.

The problem for the West is how to integrate that minor Slavic country into Euro-Atlantic economic and security structures, under the name ‘Republic of Macedonia,’ when that minor Slavic country disputes the Western-worlds cultural-historical narrative – contests the cultural foundation on which Western Civilization is based. The ancient-Greek Kingdom of Macedon and Macedonians contributed greatly towards development of Western-worlds Civilizational Principles…FYRoM and the Yugoslavians that live there did not!

The problem for the Haemus-Peninsula is FYRoM, a minor Slavic country recently established wanting to carve out a place for itself in a region of the world that is steeped in Greek history. FYRoM has become bone of contention between Hellenic and Slavic interests in the peninsula, and to a lesser degree, between Slavic and Turanid interests, and to even lesser degree, between Slavic and Albanian interests. Bone of contention in the classic sense of the word.

The Name ‘Republic of Macedonia’ poses big problem for Greece. FYRoM’s National history and ethno-genesis story poses even bigger problem for the West, in that, integrating a minor Slavic country into Western economic and security structures is not impossible, what is impossible though, is integrating the FYRoM story into Western-worlds long established mainstream historical narrative. Lastly, FYRoM is classic buffer state central to milieu of cultures, languages and peoples. The Macedonian name belongs in Greek domain. Macedonian-Identity belongs to Greek heritage – applying it outside the boundaries of these historical reference-points poses problems locally, regionally, and to much wider extent, at level the West is only now starting to appreciate severity of the problem

Anonymous said...

Only in the minds of some sick and twisted anti-Hellenic, anti-Western drongo imbeciles, do they equate FYRoM to Macedonia and Yugoslavians to Macedonians.

Only in the minds of some sick and twisted anti-Hellenic, anti-Western 5th columnist mind-architects, nesting in positions of power and influence, infiltrating highest echelons of diplomatic office, do they terra-form political future landscapes where Macedonia is graunched away from Greeks and Hellenism and placed into the hands of Slavs and Slavdom.

Only in their sick and twisted minds do they see this future!

Only in their anti-Hellenic eyes do they see FYRoM like 'Republic of Macedonia' and Yugoslavians like Macedonians.

Those in charge in the West, with mandate to protect Western way of life, are also responsible for keeping Western worlds cultural-historical narrative safe from revisionism and pseudo-historical attack. In the FYRoM case, Western cultural-historical defense mechanisms were found wanting, non-existant!

If FYRoM's integration into the West necessitates the rewriting of history, then Academia declares War on political expediance. Historians challenge Politicians. Classicist historian scholars throw the gauntlet down in challenge to those anti-Hellenic, anti-Western 5th columnist drongo imbeciles vision of Western Civilizations future history.

Only in the minds of some sick and twisted 5th columnist mind-architects, do they terra-form political future inside their heads where FYRoM is seen like 'Republic of Macedonia' and where Yugoslavians are seen like Macedonians.

In the real world, Macedonians are Centum Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples...recorded that way in the Western worlds long-established cultural-historical narrative - the narrative that binds Western Civil Society to shared common heritage. Destroy that, and you destroy the West!

Anonymous said...

On the back of the name dispute with FYRoM…every Greek-hating man and his dog contributed something towards the character-assassination of the Hellenic Republic and the Greek-Hellenic peoples, which ultimately manifested into an all out attack on Western values and culture.

Western worlds cultural-historical narrative bismerched by FYRoM, by Afrocentrists, by Turkists, by Slavists and by turcoalbanian pseudo-historical revisionists is good enough reason for Greece to make a stand, to stand it’s ground in order to defend and to protect the Western worlds cultural-historical foundation.

To keep historical cohesion, necessitates Western worlds cultural-historical narrative being kept intact, unblemished and unspoilt…if Western Civil Societies common understandings of shared common heritage are to be adhered to.

FYRoM pseudo-historical revisionism, placed alongside Afrocentric, Turanid, Slavist and turcoalbanian anti-Western theories, Ideas and conjectures, contributed massively towards the erosion of Western Civil Societies common understandings of shared common heritage, the fabric from which the West wove it’s cloth, the glue that binds Western democratic adherence towards common Civilizational Principles.

Erode the Western worlds cultural-historical narrative. Erode the Wests cultural-heritage. Erode Western Civil Societies common understandings of shared common heritage…now sit back and watch the Western worlds cultural-foundation crumble. Western Civilization under attack from FYRoM style pseudo-historical revisionism allied to Afrocentric, Turanid, Slavist and turcoalbanian theories Ideas and conjectures – all combined together to badmouth Greece in genaral and the West in particular.

The Name ‘Republic of Macedonia’ poses big problem for Greece. FYRoM’s National history and ethno-genesis story poses even bigger problem for the West, in that, integrating minor Slavic country into Western-worlds economic and security structures means integrating FYRoM ethnogenesis story into the Wests long established mainstream historical narrative…an impossible task the West is only now starting to appreciate the severity of!

Anonymous said...

FYRoM scripted itself a pseudo-historical national narrative that was so crude and so crass...so anti-Hellenic and so anti-Western, historians rejected it outright so the West rejected FYRoM. Now FYRoM is alone in the world - isolated.

Macedonia: One History, One Macedonia Story!

There is only one history. One Macedonian story. History cannot support two versions of the Macedonia story...one pseudo and Slavic, and the other one, mainstream and Hellenic - Think about that for a moment.

The Macedonian name belongs in Greek domain...Macedonian-Identity belongs to Greek-heritage. Two strong accredited tenets historians use to expose FYRoM like Slavic pretender to the ancient-Macedonian legacy. Those who fight against historians, contest and dispute prefixed academic reference-points, are anti-Hellenic at heart and anti-Western by extension. FYRoM is not Macedonia and the peoples there are Slavic Yugoslavians, similar to Serbians, Croatians, Bosnians, Slovenians, Montenegrins and Bulgarians.

Integrating FYRoM into the Western worlds economic and security structures under the name 'Republic of Macedonia' dumps on academia and creates problems political-expediance did not cater for, or care about. The ancient-Kingdom of Macedon contributed greatly towards Western-worlds cultural foundation...FYRoM contributed nothing. Macedonians contributed heavily towards development of Civilizational priniciples the West still hold dear - Yugoslavians did not. Calling FYRoM Macedonia at political level shows total disregard for academia and displays disgraceful ignorance on subject matter classicist-historians spent life-time disseminating.

FYRoM is minor Slavic country peopled by NoN-Greeks, therefore, it cannot exist next to Greece using the Macedonian name for country-name...sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity. Macedonians are a Centum Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples that exist in the Haemus [ Greek ] peninsula from since the times of King-Karanus 778-808 BC. FYRoM cannot benefit from their achievements.

The Macedonian name belongs in Greek domain. Macedonian-Identity belongs to Greek-heritage...two tenets FYRoM argues and fights against, making it anti-Hellenic entity - anti-Western by extension.

Macedonia: The Name, Identity, History, Heritage, Legacy - It's All Greek!

Macedonians have right to keep as Greek as possible, the identity-characteristics of their regional-historical, Haemus-Hellenic ancestors. FYRoM cannot exist like 'Republic of Macedonia' on that basis.

Anonymous said...

Political expediance cannot ride roughshod over accredited prefixed academic reference-points. Example is FYRoM, where politicians rushed to incorporate minor Slavic country into Euro-Atlantic economic and security structures, without giving due care and attention to the corosive effects integration would have on Western worlds cultural-historical foundations.

Integrating FYRoM into the EU and NATO is not impossible, what is impossible, is integrating FYRoM’s national history into the Western worlds long-established mainstream historical narrative. FYRoM’s ethnogenesis story makes Macedonians Proto-Slavs…this is the propblem!

Macedonians have always been a Centum Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples…a regional historical people-group of ethnic-Greek stock. Keeping the Western worlds cultural-historical narrative intact is something that has a taken on an importance never before seen, or heard of, in light of the current threats that seek to alter it. Preserving the Western worlds historical cohesion is now top priority for the West.

History has taught us that Paeonia changes name according to the two ruling authorities contesting it’s jurisdiction. From since the settlement of the Slavic-tribes on Greco-Roman soil…Slavdom renames Paeonia to ‘Peoples Republic of Macedonia’ for the first time, in 1945. Before 1945, there was never a ‘Macedonia’ in the Slavic world. FYRoM attempts to rewrite history, but their version of it clashes and conflicts with the Western worlds long-established mainstream historical narrative.

Historians Philologists and Demographers know, FYRoM is not Macedonia and the peoples there are Slavic…[ized] now! Historically and geographically FYRoM was Paeonia in antiquity, Dardania north from Skopje. FYRoM had many names in the past, all of them recorded for posterity. The first recorded name was Paeonia.

It was the latin-Romans that renamed Paeonia to Macedonia II Salutaris. Later, the Greco-Romans renamed Paeonia to Theme-Bulgaria when they recaptured lost Byzantine lands from an invading Avaro-Hunnic, Slavo-Bulgar, tribal-conglomorate. Theme-Macedonia was physically relocated to Thrace. You know when a name is yours, when you take it with you, wherever you go. Example is Theme-Macedonia.

Paeonia stayed inside Byzantium, the empire of Constantinople, Imperium Romanum, Romania, until the coming of the Eastern-Asiatic, Oriental-Musulman Turk.

The Turk renamed Paeonia to Vilayet-Monastir and Vilayet-Kosovo, until the Balkan Wars, when Paeonia became a province of South-Serbia, within the Kingdom of Yugoslavia.

1943, the Kingdom of Yugoslavia becomes Democratic Federal Yugoslavia. Paeonia becomes Vardar-Banovina when in 1945, Comrade Tito rename the place to ‘Peoples Republic of Macedonia’, then to ‘Socialist Peoples Republic of Macedonia’ a short while afterwards.

FYRoM can trace it’s geographical, regional-historical name back to Paeonia, in backwards compatible fashion…in perfect synchronicity with the long established mainstream historical record.

Knowing these things, these accredited prefixed academic reference-points…FYRoM cannot exist like ‘Republic of Macedonia’ without distinction.

The Slavs of FYRoM believe they are Macedonians, so they fight hard to have the Macedonian name assigned to them exclusively. They covet the Macedonian name for country-name, sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity, when it is known, those Identity-factors do not bode well for South-Slavs – FYRoM’s answer to this anomoly is to deny that they are Slavs in the first place.

If the Satem Slavic-speaking peoples of FYRoM are not Slavs, then what are they ? Paeonians [Slavicized] maybe! If they were authentic-Macedonians, they would be talking Centum-Greek…walking and talking Greek-style!

Anonymous said...

On two important questions,'Who are the real Macedonians' and 'Where is the real Macedonia', all respondants that took part scored 100%. Try the test yourself...You have a go!

Question A: FYRoM is Macedonia and the peoples there are Macedonians - TRUE or FALSE

Question B: FYRoM is not Macedonia and the peoples there are Slavic - TRUE or FALSE

The Correct answer is A:FALSE and B:TRUE

Macedonians never spoke the FYRoM language. Macedonians never lived in FYRoM. Macedonians spoke Centum-Greek. Macedonians lived in Macedon...ancient-Greek Kingdom. Can You See it Now!

Macedonia is Hellenic - Macedonians are Northern-Greeks.
FYRoM is Slavic - Yugoslavs are Southern-Slavs. Can You See it Now!

From since 2008, FYRoM lives in self-imposed exile, isolated from the very economic and security structures it says, it aspires to join. FYRoM always says the right things but never does the right things! The Onus is on FYRoM to compromise in order to end the long running name dispute with Greece...so says the UN, EU, USA, NATO and the International Academic Community.

FYRoM cannot exist like 'Republic of Macedonia' next to Greece! It causes problems, not just for NATO, Greece, and the EU, but for the children pupils and students there, who confuse their minor Slavic country for Macedonia and mistake Southern-Slavs for Northern-Greeks. That confusion is exploited at state level where apparatus of state is used to promote Slavic origins for Macedonians. In reality, Macedonians are Greek for >3 Millenniums but the educational system in FYRoM never ever taught this. Young children in FYRoM believe they are Macedonians with Alexander the Great for ancestor.

Those who see Macedonian things in FYRoM see them through prism of anti-Hellenism. Those who see Macedonian things in South-Slavs need their eyes tested! Those who see FYRoM like 'Republic of Macedonia' and Yugoslavians like Macedonians are anti-Hellenic at heart, anti-Western by extension. There are no grey areas - Macedonia is Hellenic >3 Millenniums.

FYRoM is not Macedonia and the peoples there speak Slavic. FYRoM is Paeonia and the peoples there Yugoslavians and Albanians. Where is Macedonia - Where are the Macedonians! To know that is to know Greece...from it's earliest history to the present.

Lets not kid ourselves...FYRoM is Paeonia not Macedonia. The peoples there are Slavic not Macedonians. The FYRoM language is Serbo-Bulgarian not Macedonian-language. Did anybody see anything Macedonian there. Where is Macedonia in those things! Macedonians have always been Centum Greek-speakers, Hellenic-peoples. Nobody of worth in the West, from politics, from diplomatic services, from academia, sees FYRoM the way the people there imagine. FYRoM is seen like minor Slavic country recently established 1991, with anti-Hellenic, anti-Western tendencies.

Macedonians have always been Centum Greek speaking Hellenic peoples. Those who deny it, dispute it, and contest it, are anti-Hellenic drongo imbeciles - anti-Western by extension.

Macedonians have UN recognized right to keep as Greek as possible, the identity-characteristics of their regional-historical Haemus-Hellenic ancestors. Who is imbecile enough to contest it.

Anonymous said...

The Macedonian name is older than Slavic arrival to Haemus [Greek] Peninsula - FYRoM cannot use this name for ethnic-racial use, or cultural-linguistic use, whilst clothed in Slavic dressing. No Slavic Tribe used Macedonian name for Tribal name.

Slavic-Tribes entered Greek Peninsula top-end of 6th Century AD...this is prefixed academic reference-point. They entered Imperial Byzantium territories after the Goths and before the Magyars.

Slavic...[ized] E1b1b J2 carriers in FYRoM boast Native origins, on account of those haplogroups mutating subclade characteristics unique to the Haemus Peninsula.

FYRoM E1b1b J2 carriers are Haemus-Native. In the FYRoM case, it makes them indigenous Paeonians, and then Dardanians north from Skopje...Not Macedonians. FYRoM is not Macedonia. Macedon, the ancient-Greek Kingdom is located further South, in Northern-Greece.

Haplogroups properly identified denote origin - not ethnicity!

Macedonians are not Slavs...they never spoke Satem-Slavic - they never lived in FYRoM. Macedonians always spoke Centum-Greek and always lived in the ancient-Greek Kingdom of Macedon.

So what of the Slavs living in Northern-Greece from since Slavic arrival to Greek Peninsula, 1,400 years ago? Draguvites, Sagudates and Berzetes...Same Slavic Tribes straddled over Byzantine Greco-Roman military districts known as Themes. To know that, is to know Greco-Roman history.

To defend themselves against barbarian Avaro-Huns and Slavo-Bulgarians...Byzantines developed military protected zones designed to keep indigenous Greco-Romans safe from attack from incursion or from invasion. Theme-Bulgaria was shifted to where FYRoM is situated today. Theme-Macedonia was shifted to where Bulgaria is situated today. In that shifting of Place-Names, the Byzantines demonstrated proof of ownership over the Macedonian name. You know when a name is yours, when you take it with you, to different geographic location.

So what of the Draguvites, Sagudates and Berzete Slavic-Tribes that settled Theme-Bulgaria? Well, they ended-up as South-Slavs...we know them today like FYRoM.

And what of the same Draguvites, Sagudates and Berzete Slavic-Tribes that settled Theme-Macedonia? Well, they ended-up absorbed into Bulgarian milieu.

And what of the same Draguvites, Sagudates and Berzete Slavic-Tribes that settled Theme-Thessalonike? Well, they ended-up absorbed into Greco-Roman milieu. The Slavs of Greece are called Slavo-phones, Slavic-speaking Greeks.

FYRoM has no legitimate claim to Macedonian name. FYRoM Slavs, even without their Slavic dressing are still only indigenous Greco-Romans from Paeonian-Dardanian stock. FYRoM cannot use Macedonian name for Country-Name...Sovereign State-Name, Nationality, Language or Ethnicity. Nothing fits easily, dressed Slavic Clothes or Native Clothes.

The only Slavic peoples in the Haemus [Greek] Peninsula that have right to call themselves Macedonians, are the ones that were absorbed into Greco-Roman milieu, which later fought Ottoman-Turk Empire for the freedom and glory of Greece. Greeks from Draguvites, Sagudates and Berzetes Slavic heritage are Greeks now...in all the ways that matter.

Macedonians are the Greeks that continue to practice their self-determination right, in the tradition of their regional-historical Haemus-Hellenic ancestors.

Anonymous said...

The Macedonian name carries with it, Hellenic baggage, strewn across all the bandwidths of historical spectrum. FYRoM cannot use the Macedonian name for Country-Name...Sovereign State-Name, Nationality, Language and Ethnicity on that basis. The Macedonian name is far too rooted in Hellenism to be contested.

FYRoM vies with Greece, competes with the international academic community to erase Greek-Hellenic identity of Macedonia and Macedonians for a cause that is rooted in anti-Hellenism. Making Macedonians Slavic, is anti-Hellenic act, anti-Western by extension.

Until recently, it has been proven through genetic science that South-Slavs in closest proximity to Greeks carry something native from the Haemus in their biology. In the Haemus we are all Greek to some degree...it's just that some of us are more than others!

Only through their Greek componant can South-Slavs claim heritage to pre-Slavic peoples, post Slavic arrival to the Haemus [Greek] peninsula. The Slavic componant of E1b1b J2 Haemus-Natives, historically, takes them back to 6th Century AD. Beyond this prefixed academic reference-point, the Slavs have no history in the Haemus peninsula. Before the 6th Century AD, there were no Slavs, just Byzantine Greco-Romans who self-Identified Romioi, a universal supranational Identity used by Eastern-Romans who's loyalties and affiliations were with Patriarchate of Constantinople.

South-Slavs in the Haemus with native Haemus origin, can only go back to the Byzantine Greco-Romans, the peoples who universally self-ascribed Romioi.

FYRoM's pre-Slavic population was Greco-Roman...Greek-speaking Romioi with loyalties and affiliations towards the Patriarchate of Constantinople - until the coming of the Bulgarian Exarchate 1870.

Anonymous said...

Macedonians have always been Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples. As long as these peoples exist...no other peoples can use their name - for country-name, nationality, language and ethnicity.

Macedon is ancient-Greek Kingdom from since the days of King Karanus 808-778 BC. Macedonians always spoke Centum-Greek and always lived in Macedon...Northern-Greece.

There is only one Macedonia story. History cannot support two versions of the Macedonia story...one Slavic and pseudo, and the other one mainstream and Hellenic. FYRoM revulsed the West with Slavist-orientated revisionism and pseudo-history!

Macedon belongs in Hellenic world. Macedonian-Name belongs in Greek domain. Macedonian-Identity belongs to Greek heritage. Those who see FYRoM like Macedonia or ex-Yugoslavs like Macedonians, see them that way through anti-Hellenic eyes, through prism of anti-Hellenism. Macedonians have right to keep as Greek as possible, the identity-characteristics of their regional-historical Haemus-Hellenic ancestors.

FYRoM is not Macedonia, it is Paeonia then Dardania north from Skopje. FYRoM language is not Macedonian, it is Serbo-Bulgarian, similar to Serbo-Croatian. FYRoM peoples are not Macedonians, they are South-Slavs, similar to Slovenes, Croatians, Montenegrins, Serbians, Bosnians and Bulgarians. Macedonians never spoke the FYRoM language. Macedonians never lived in FYRoM. Conclusion: FYRoM is not Macedonia and the peoples there are Slavic. Greeks strive to protect their history in order to preserve historical cohesion. For Greeks it is important because of FYRoM.

FYRoM is minor Slavic country recently established 1991. FYRoM is home to Albanians and Slavs, both politicized and propagandized, and both strive to besmirch Greek history. The Western worlds cultural historical narrative depends on Macedonians spreading Hellenic culture, spreading the Centum-Greek language, Greek knowledge and wisdom to the farthest easternmost reaches of the then known ancient world. The West underestimated FYRoM's ability to erode Western civilizations cultural-historical foundations.

Western societies common understandings of shared common heritage does not cater for FYRoM Slavs boasting Macedonian origin, or Albanians boasting Illyrian origin, or Turks boasting Trojan origin. Revisionism and pseudo-history ultimately erode Western worlds cultural-historical narrative...Slavs, Albanians and Turks cannot rewrite history to their theoretical ideas and conjectures. The western worlds cultural-historical narrative cannot be held hostage to revisionism and pseudo-history. Preserving historical cohesion to combat Slavic Turkic and Albanian revisionism is now, very important for the West.

Macedonians have right to Kill FYRoM revisionism attempt at rewriting their history. Join the fight against FYRoM attempt to rewrite Western worlds cultural historical narrative. Kill FYRoM revisionism. Kill FYRoM pseudo-history. Kill FYRoM attempt to rewrite Greek history. Historical cohesion depends on it.

FYRoM has no right to besmirch Greek history. FYRoM has no right to Rubbish Greeks Greece and Hellenism. FYRoM has no right to use the Macedonian name for country-name...sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity.

Anonymous said...

When Greece, Greeks, and Hellenism were being attacked, through Cyber mediums and all media platforms known to man and science, our Western Partners and European Cousins stoodby and watched it happen. Some factions even joined in, inputting their own brand of anti-Hellenism. The Kissinger speech and the actions of some Nordic countries, testament to propaganda designed to humiliate Greece, character-assassinate the modern-Greek national-character, and, belittle Hellenic contributions towards development of Western civilizational principles.

The West went through dark period, not knowing fully what it stood for, or in which direction to focus policy and progress. Anti-Hellenic mind-architects took up high positions in policy making, relegating importance of Greece in their planning.

The link between the West and Greece is cultural. Hellenic culture is the catalyst that binds...the cultural-historical ether that wafts across national boundaries, the common binding factor that keeps in tune, Western civil societies common understandings of shared common heritage - destroy that, and you destroy the West.

When Greece defends Hellenic Republics national history, and when Greeks protect their Hellenic heritage, and when Hellenism confronts anti-Hellenic propaganda...the West should stand by Greece.

Greece fights to keep Western-worlds cultural-historical narrative intact. Historical cohesion is important for Greece, because of FYRoM. Greeks fight to keep their history and heritage from being rubbished...besmirched by benefactors that support FYRoM. Hellenism fights for respect, for adopted culture of choice for the West. The West owes Hellenism something. Respect enough to want to defend it, and protect it, against FYRoM attempts to besmirch it, and against factions that still work hard to belittle Hellenic contributions towards Western Civilization.

Greeks fight the good fight - join them! Protect Western Civilzation. Fight to keep Western worlds long-established cultural-historical narrative in tact...free from FYRoM revisionism and pseudo-history!

Anonymous said...

Catch 22 - Chicken and egg - Chapter and Verse - One without the Other. There can be no Macedonia without Greeks, because it took Greeks to create Macedon...the ancient-Greek Kingdom. There can be no Egypt without Greek, it took Greeks to create this term. There can be no Evropi without Greeks - It took Greeks to create this concept. All of these things would not exist without Greeks, because it took Greeks for them to exist in the first place.

No West without Greeks...It took Greeks to create this civilization. It took Greeks to create the conditions for culture and civilization to develop Western-Style. No Western Civilization without Greeks. It took Greeks for Western Civilization to exist. No West. No Evropi. No Egypt. No Macedonia - It took Greeks for all of these things to exist in the first place.

Conclusion: FYRoM is not Macedonia. The FYRoM language is not Macedonian. FYRoM peoples are not Macedonians.

Macedonians never lived in FYRoM. Macedonians never spoke the FYRoM language. Macedonians never affiliated with Slavdom - FYRoM does not have right to covet the Macedonian Name for country-name...sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity.

Those who push FYRoM to seek ethnogenic origins in Macedonia are pushing the wrong way. Macedonia is not there, where FYRoM is situated. Paeonia is there. FYRoM sits on Paeonian-lands, Dardanian-lands north from Skopje. Conclusion: FYRoM is not Macedonia and the peoples there are Slavic.

It took a Croat to create FYRoM. It took a Croatian South-Slav for FYRoM to exist. Comrade Jozip Broz Tito created FYRoM - the most anti-Hellenic entity known to Greeks, the West, the UN, EU, NATO and the International Academic Community.

Macedon in FYRoM hands would cease to exist as ancient-Greek Kingdom. Macedonians in FYRoM hands would cease to exist as Greeks. Macedonians Greek-Hellenic identity would be erased from demographic history of Haemus [Greek] peninsula. FYRoM revisionism would script them like peoples different from Greeks.

The West owes Greece for creating the conditions for culture and civilization to develop Western-Style. Greece fights for preservation of historical cohesion. Greece fights for Hellenism. Hellenism deserves the respect of the West. There can be no Macedonia without Greeks. FYRoM cannot use this name for country-name...sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity without humiliating Greeks, belittling Hellenism and ridiculing the West.

Hellenism deserves respect of the West. Greece is the West. Greece shall protect Hellenic Republics national history. Greeks shall defend their Hellenic heritage...

...Come Hell or High Water.

Anonymous said...

I don’t see anything wrong with Greeks wanting to preserve their history and heritage free from FYRoM pseudo-historical propaganda. Do You see anything wrong ?

I see nothing wrong in Greeks wanting to keep Macedonian Identity-characteristics Hellenic. Do You anything wrong ? I see plenty wrong in FYRoM South-Slavs wanting to make Macedonian Identity-characteristics Slavic. Macedon is ancient-Greek Kingdom. Macedonians are Hellenic on that basis. Who got front to contest it.

I see nothing wrong in Greeks wanting to keep the Macedonian name in the Greek domain. Do You see anything wrong ? I see plenty wrong in FYRoM wanting to use the Macedonian name for country-name…sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity. Centum-Greek speaking Hellenic-peoples created that name. Who got face to deny it!

I see nothing wrong in Greeks wanting to keep the Western worlds cultural-historical narrative intact, not held hostage to revisionism and unsubstantiated pseudo-historical Theories Ideas Conjectures. Do You anything wrong ? I see plenty wrong in FYRoM spreading pseudo-historical propaganda directed at the Hellenic-peoples, the Hellenic Republic and Hellenism, the culture that shaped Western worlds cultural-historical foundation.

I see nothing wrong in Greeks wanting to resolve the name dispute in peaceful amicable manner, in manner that keeps Macedon Greek and FYRoM enlightened. Do You see anything wrong ? I see plenty wrong in FYRoM South-Slavs saying they want to resolve the name dispute, but on the proviso they keep the Macedonian name for country-name…sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity.

I see nothing wrong in Macedonians wanting to practice their self-determination right to keep as Greek as possible, the identity-characteristics of their regional-historical Haemus-Hellenic ancestors. Do You see anything wrong ? I see plenty wrong in FYRoM South-Slavs wanting to superimpose Macedonian Identity-characteristics over their paternal-ancestral South-Slavic ones.

I see nothing wrong in Greeks wanting to protect and preserve their history in accordance with the Western worlds long-established cultural-historical narrative. Do You see anything wrong with that ?

Macedonians stand at forefront of long chain of Greek-speakers…a cultural-linguistic continuum spanning millennia. Macedonians look back at themselves and awe at their Hellenic inheritance.

Who got face to besmirch them!

Anonymous said...

Macedonians have always been a Centum-Greek speaking Hellenic-peoples. For as long as they exist, No other foreign people-group could use their name for country-name...sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity. FYRoM, a minor Slavic country recently established covets the Macedonian name for country-name - sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity.

There can be No Republic of Macedonia, just as there can be No Republic of Sparta...No Republic of Athens, No Republic of Corinth,
No Republic of Argos, No Republic of Epirus, No Republic of Thessaly. All of these People-Names and Place-Names belong to Hellenism, they belong in Greek domain, they belong to Greek Collective of Peoples. FYRoM cannot use the name of an ancient-Greek Kingdom for country-name - sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity on that basis.

FYRoM is Not Macedonia. FYRoM-language is Not Macedonian. FYRoM inhabitants are Not Macedonians...in the Greek sense of that word. FYRoM is Paeonia. FYRoM-language is Serbo-Bulgarian. FYRoM inhabitants are South-Slavs. Macedonians never spoke the FYRoM language. Macedonians never lived in FYRoM. Macedonians always spoke Centum-Greek and always lived in Macedon, the ancient-Greek Kingdom.

FYRoM cannot exist on the northern periphery of Greece, using the name of an ancient-Greek Kingdom for country-name...sovereign state-name, nationality and ethnicity - Why ? Because FYRoM is anti-Hellenic entity, anti-Western by extension. FYRoM like Turkey, take from the West all they can benefit. They give nothing back. FYRoM like Turkey, erodes Western worlds cultural foundations. Both FYRoM and Turkey script themselves national historical narratives that mock Western worlds long-established cultural-historical narrative. Both FYRoM and Turkey work in tandem to see Haemus [Greek] peninsula stripped from it's primordial Hellenic heritage. Oriental Musulman Turks see themselves in ancient Troy, they see ancient-Trojans for ancestors. FYRoM does the same like Turkey. FYRoM South-Slavs see themselves in ancient Macedonia, they see ancient-Macedonians for ancestors.

Greeks live next to primitive TurkoSlavic peoples who seem hell-bent on rewriting demographic history of Greek peninsula! Greeks have right to defend and protect Hellenic Republics history and heritage in the primordial homeland, the peninsula of it's birth. Macedonians have right to keep as Greek as possible, the Identity-Characteristics of their regional-historical Haemus-Hellenic ancestors.

Anonymous said...

Those who indulge FYRoM by calling this minor Slavic country 'Macedonia' keep the name dispute between FYRoM and Greece from reaching conclusion. Why? because there is no incentive on the part of FYRoM to compromise. For as long as there exists media platforms out there willing to indulge FYRoM continue airing, publishing, and advertising itself as the Republic of Macedonia...the name dispute shall remain unresolved.

Greece cannot allow this minor Slavic country to benefit from Greek contributions towards Western Civilizational Principles their ancestors played no active part in. Macedon and Macedonians contributed greatly towards Western worlds cultural-historical foundation, FYRoM contributed nothing - Why should this minor Slavic country benefit from the Macedonian Name, Identity, History, Heritage and Legacy.

FYRoM uses Greek symbols and Hellenic regalia for fun, to ridicule Greeks and humiliate Hellenism. FYRoM raises the middle finger at the West in the process. FYRoM holds the West responsible for creating Greeks in the first place. According to their warped mind-set, Greece was created by the West in order to cheat the Slavic race from it's real history and heritage in the Haemus peninsula, which they equate to Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity. Alexander the Great for them becomes Aleksandar Veliki, the first Czar of the Slavs, a great proto-Slavic hero.

When Greeces Western-Partners and European-Cousins indulge FYRoM, calling the place 'Republic of Macedonia,' calling ex-Yugoslavians, 'Macedonians,' they are entertaining a cause which is not just anti-Hellenic at heart, it is also anti-Western by extension. For the Greeks, FYRoM is anti-Hellenic entity, we see it in their actions and in their words...for >3 decades now.

The name-dispute between FYRoM and Greece shall never conclude for as long as FYRoM is indulged and entertained to continue using the name of ancient-Greek Kingdom for country-name...sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity. For them, the way they see it, they have already achieved ultimate aim. My nationality is Macedonian. I am Macedonian because I live in Republic of Macedonia and speak Macedonian, therefore, I am ethnic-Macedonian - goes the logic.

If the above were ever legitimized, Greeks and Hellenism would have lost at the stroke of a pen, >3 Millenniums worth of Greek history to minor Slavic country FYRoM.

Can You See it Now!

Anonymous said...

Macedon is Greek Kingdom same as Sparta is Greek Kingdom - Both are Dorian, and both Greek. If minor Slavic country today, stepped on to world stage and claimed the name of Spartan Kingdom for country-name...sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity - How should the West react to such anti-Hellenic action? anti-Western by extension. In the Western worlds long-established cultural-historical narrative, Sparta is Greek Kingdom same as Macedon, both Dorian, both Greek. Who could argue otherwise. Those who do argue against have to explain themselves? FYRoM explains itself by using revisionism and pseudo-history.

The FYRoM version of history differs from the Western standard. In the FYRoM version, Slavists convert the ancient-Kingdom of Paeonia to the ancient-Kingdom of Macedon. They convert ancient-Macedonians to Proto-Slavs. They convert the Centum-Greek language of ancient-Macedon to Satem-Slavic Serbo-Bulgarian. They convert the classics into something Vulgar...then plead for Western recognition - recognition that will eventually enable them to join the Euro-Atlantic economic and security area.

The West gave this newly emergent country an inch, and it took a mile. The West gave this recently established country a chance to join the Western-worlds most prestigious economic and security structures of the EU and NATO. The West gave this minor Slavic country the opportunity to mend issues with neighbouring states - FYRoM gave nothing back. Instead, FYRoM continues to dupe the West by saying all the right things, but doing the wrong things.

The West cannot accept into it's midst, a recently established country that has issues with neighbouring states. Those issues must be resolved. The most pressing, and the most contentious issue FYRoM has, is the issue of the name-dispute with Greece over the use of the Macedonian name which FYRoM wants to use for country-name...sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity. Greece contends, there can be No 'Republic of Macedonia' just as there can be No 'Republic of Sparta,' both Dorian and both Greek. Macedon and Sparta are People-Names and Place-Names that belong in Hellenic world, to Hellenism, created by Greeks for Greek use.

FYRoM clings on to the Idea, that one day, the West shall turn against Greece and fully recognize FYRoM like 'Republic of Macedonia' whereby Greece is then ejected from the EU and NATO, and FYRoM fills the void. The West would then view FYRoM like the legitimate heir and inheritor of the Macedonian legacy. The Macedonian Name, Identity, History, Heritage and Legacy would then shift over to FYRoM cultural-historical ownership and everything would be all good, fluffy and white - FYRoM would thern be content little bunny!

In the real world of politics...Greece holds the Acdemic, Moral and Legal high ground. In the real world of diplomacy, the Onus is on FYRoM to compromise, to adopt a name that properly reflects the ethnic-racial, cultural and linguistic reality in FYRoM. The Macedonian name, like the Spartan name, are names that are far too rooted in hellenism to be contested. For example: Macedon is Greek Kingdom. Macedonians are Hellenic on the basis. Another example: Sparta is Greek Kingdom. Spartans are Hellenic on same basis. Final example: There can be No Republic of Macedonia, just as there can be No Republic of Sparta - both are Dorian, both are Greek.

Anonymous said...

FYRoM cannot exist on northern periphery of Greece using the name of ancient-Greek Kingdom for country-name...sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity - Why? Because FYRoM is anti-Hellenic entity, the most racist hateful deceitful South-Slavs ever to settle the Greek peninsula. Evidently, the old-Yugoslavia produced people-groups so anti-Hellenic, they devised genetic and historical propaganda to displace Greeks from demographic history of the Haemus [Greek] peninsula. Yugoslavs, under strict authoritarian conditions were taught to see themselves like native, indigenous peoples. Pre-Slavic peoples were depicted like biological medium for transmitting to Slavs, all they had to give. So from them, after intermixing, the Slavs inherit things their exogenous forebears played no active part in. Yugoslavian propagandists produced >1001 Theories Ideas and Conjectures that explain to the young, how Slavs connect more to the Haemus than the Greeks. Genetic propaganda coupled with historical propaganda indoctrinates young Slavic children pupils and students today. They believe Greeks are foreigners from Africa, whilst they are native pure and indigenous. Hence they find it difficult to believe the opposite, that the reverse is true.

Geneticists, Anthroplogists, Archaelogists, Demographers, Historians, Philologists and Linguists, place the Greeks in one defined cultural-linguistic space from since the beginning of recorded history. Greeks have existed in the Haemus, the primordial homeland, from since the dawn of time. Before that time, who knows about Greeks. Time is factor from which historians map and place historical people-groups. The evidence tells us about Greeks from that time or Greeks from more forward time, across the historical spectrum. The point is, there has always been Greeks in the primordial homelands. Yugoslavic propaganda, genetic or historical, is too crude and too crass to displace Greeks from history or the Haemus. FYRoM is main heir and inheritor of that old-Yugoslavic anti-Hellenic propaganda. From there, they still promote those Theories Ideas and Conjectures that convert FYRoM South-Slavs to native Macedonians, and Greeks, foreigners from Africa. FYRoM is anti-Hellenic entity...the most anti-Hellenic people-group to come out of Yugoslavia.

Greeks cannot stand idly-by watching, whilst South-Slavs demean Greeks, ridicule Greece, and belittle Hellenism.
We are too proud for that. Greeks cannot permit South-Slavic peoples to use name of ancient-Greek Kingdom for country-name...sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity. Greeks cannot allow old-Yugoslavic propaganda to permeate against Hellenism. Propaganda must not be rewarded. Propaganda must be confronted, challenged, questioned and then corrected. This is what Greeks do from since the advent of
Macedonia:Out Of Yugoslavia Theory

FYRoM onto world stage, the most anti-Hellenic entity ever to come out of Yugoslavia. To this day, South-Slavs still refuse to believe that Macedon was Greek Kingdom, and that Macedonians have always been Greek-speaking Hellenic peoples.
Greeks cannot live under cloud of hostility and anti-Hellenism - indefinately!

Anonymous said...

Macedonia:Understanding Haemus Peninsula History and People-Dynamics.

People are just people...wandering free spirits. So people take journey's. People wander into and out of, cultural-linguistic spaces, by force, by choice or by chance. If that place is hospitable enough, civilized enough, and rich enough to accommodate their needs, some people would find those things attractive enough to settle there. So in this regard, we can only talk about people like wandering free spirits, carrying with them some cultural baggage inherited from the previous cultural-linguistic area they decided to vacate.

People have been uprooting themselves from since time immemorial, by their own free-choice or not, the point here is to illustrate the fact that biological make-up, blood and Dna, are not important factors on voyage towards development of new ethnicity. People with history, with previous ethnicity, with previous cultural-linguistic affiliations, are free to place those things on-hold during acculturation, the transitional period that leads to proper assimilation. History and the laws of People-Dynamics tell us that within 200 years or 8 generations, people can replace ethnicity with new one, replace language with new one, replace culture with new one. I shall not cite examples - that is for the reader to investigate and research.

Long time ago, recorded in history, Slavic tribes uprooted themselves from steppe primordial homeland, a journey which led them to wander into new Greco-Roman cultural-linguistic area. The settlement of the Slavs into the Byzantine Empire is well documented. FYRoM's immediate ancestors were the Draguvites, Sagudates and Berzetes. So FYRoM is Slavic in this regard. People-Dynamics ensured that within 200 years or 8 generations, the previous pre-Slavic Greco-Roman population there Slavicized, by force, or by fee-will. On this basis, FYRoM has been Slavic place from since the 6th Century AD, a cultural-linguistic area that can boast continuum >1400 years of Slavic history, where the Slavic-language, culture, and tradition has been practiced there for the same. FYRoM now though, appears to be in transition, on a journey towards development of new ethnicity, incorporating with it new identity-factors which do not follow the laws People-Dynamics taught us. The peoples there appear to be on voyage towards discarding their Slavic inheritance, shedding their Slavic cultural-linguistic identity for a Macedonian Hellenic one.

FYRoM, without following the rules and laws People-Dynamics taught us, where (i) peoples are
free to wander into, and outof, the cultural-linguistic spaces of others,(ii) people are free to settle, if they consider the place hospitable enough, civilized enough and rich enough to accommodate their needs,(iii) people are free to put on hold, their previous ethnicity during acculturation period,(iv) people are free to assimilate on acceptance by the host community,(v) people are free to absorb the language culture and traditions of host community,(vi) people are free to develop same ethnic-feelings, same collective-memories, same national pride of the host nation. FYRoM did none of these things. FYRoM did not follow the rules and laws of People-Dynamics, instead, FYRoM follows path of usurping them.

Anonymous said...

People are just people...wandering free spirits. So people take journey's. People wander into and out of, cultural-linguistic spaces, by force, by choice or by chance. If that place is hospitable enough, civilized enough, and rich enough to accommodate their needs, some people would find those things attractive enough to settle there. So in this regard, we can only talk about people like wandering free spirits, carrying with them some cultural baggage inherited from the previous cultural-linguistic area they decided to vacate.

People have been uprooting themselves from since time immemorial, by their own free-choice or not, the point here is to illustrate the fact that biological make-up, blood and Dna, are not important factors on voyage towards development of new ethnicity. People with history, with previous ethnicity, with previous cultural-linguistic affiliations, are free to place those things on-hold during acculturation, the transitional period that leads to proper assimilation. History and the laws of People-Dynamics tell us that within 200 years or 8 generations, people can replace ethnicity with new one, replace language with new one, replace culture with new one. I shall not cite examples - that is for the reader to investigate and research.

Long time ago, recorded in history, Slavic tribes uprooted themselves from steppe primordial homeland, a journey which led them to wander into new Greco-Roman cultural-linguistic area. The settlement of the Slavs into the Byzantine Empire is well documented. FYRoM's immediate ancestors were the Draguvites, Sagudates and Berzetes. So FYRoM is Slavic in this regard. People-Dynamics ensured that within 200 years or 8 generations, the previous pre-Slavic Greco-Roman population there Slavicized, by force, or by fee-will. On this basis, FYRoM has been Slavic place from since the 6th Century AD, a cultural-linguistic area that can boast continuum >1400 years of Slavic history, where the Slavic-language, culture, and tradition has been practiced there for the same. FYRoM now though, appears to be in transition, on a journey towards development of new ethnicity, incorporating with it new identity-factors which do not follow the laws People-Dynamics taught us. The peoples there appear to be on voyage towards discarding their Slavic inheritance, shedding their Slavic cultural-linguistic identity for a Macedonian Hellenic one.

FYRoM, without following the rules and laws People-Dynamics taught us, where (i) peoples are
free to wander into, and outof, the cultural-linguistic spaces of others,(ii) people are free to settle, if they consider the place hospitable enough, civilized enough and rich enough to accommodate their needs,(iii) people are free to put on hold, their previous ethnicity during acculturation period,(iv) people are free to assimilate on acceptance by the host community,(v) people are free to absorb the language culture and traditions of host community,(vi) people are free to develop same ethnic-feelings, same collective-memories, same national pride of the host nation. FYRoM did none of these things. FYRoM did not follow the rules and laws of People-Dynamics, instead, FYRoM follows path of usurping them.

Anonymous said...

The ancient-Hellenic Tribes were made-up from a collection of >230 known, ancient-Greek groups, tribes and Kingdoms. Did they all share the same blood, the same Dna, the same features, the same morphology, the same skeletal frame and skull...I doubt it! So what was it that united the ancient-Hellenes into one unified people-group - Alexander the Great maybe?

Blood and Dna belong to race, if race can be defined to mean the morphological correlation between people-groups, scattered or not, found sharing same similar skeletal frame who's features relate to distinguishable anthropological skull type. Ethnicity is different. Ethnicity is cultural, something learned, under strict authoritarian conditions or not.

Today, Nations are rarely made up of just one type of people-group, sharing the same distinguishable racial features, dressed in same local traditional woven attire, subscribing to same similar belief system, recollecting same collective-memory through folklore, waving same national symbols, feeling same sense of pride in their achievements from the past to the present.

Nation building today is difficult. FYRoM is a case in point, a prime example where newly emergent country attempts to construct semblance of nation, following instruction from the ACME little red book of Nation building.

Alongside that ACME little Red Book of Nation Building is also another little book, entitled the ACME little Red Book of Population Dynamics...sold in Twin Pack. Understanding people-dynamics is essential when building Nations from disparate ethnically programmed people-groups, each of them carrying their own unique cultural-baggage. Under these conditions, a unifying factor is sought, under which all of them could unite.

In FYRoM, some bright spark came up with the idea to unite everyone under the banner of Makedonism, the ideology who's doctrine attempts to instill in the peoples there a sense of ethnic-pride in ancient-Macedon, the Greek Kingdom that was ruled by King Philip of Macedon, a powerful hero figure in antiquity who's son Alexander the Great conquered the then known, ancient world.

The problem for those FYRoM Nation builders is this: Macedon is Greek Kingdom. Macedonians are Hellenic on that basis. The rest is history...